Why flyer

[emp1953]

You have the rifle, the shooter, the shooting bench or rest, and the weather conditions.

You might have a rifle that is a .5 MOA rifle in a mechanical rest. Put it in the hands of a shooter from a good rest and it might be a .75 MOA gun. Move to a shaky bench and you might be 1 MOA. Stand him up and it might be a 1.5 or 2 MOA. Throw in some wind and groups will open up. Maybe a handload that was developed in the summer and shot in the winter or vice versa.

Take a crappy shooter and do the same and he might be all over the place no matter what the conditions. Someone I hunt with has to be dragged to the range to verify zero prior to a season. They are horrible. They tend to surround animals rather than hit them. No rifle is sub 1 MOA in their hands.

I shoot NRL22. I see new shooters posting groups at 25 yards with low tier rimfire ammo. They declare that you do not have to use match ammo to shoot rimfire PRS. I ask how it shoots at 50 or 100 and beyond. No one likes to hear that. They like the looks of their small groups with Armscor, Remington Yellow Jackets, Winchester Bulk, or even CCI SV. Move it out to 50 yards or 100 yards and you will se the fliers and have the misfires with the cheaper stuff. No one likes to face reality. I am not a very good NRL22 competitor. I am not able to shoot a match every month. I am routinely in the lower half of scores at my club. I know that and I am OK with that. I just do not have the time. From a bench I am pretty good. I use good ammo. I do not shoot 3 round groups at 25 yards and call it good.

Shooting one sub MOA group does not make a rifle a sub MOA gun. Discounting flyers does not magically make the group smaller. 3 round groups are not enough.

Wishing I could get my hands on some Yellow Jackets.

 

[FEENIX]

So asking for advice turns into insults. Sorry for reaching out

Unless I missed it, I did not see any insults directed to anyone.

 

[Rosebud]

Ok, 45 replies into this and not a peep from the OP.
We're just arguing with ourselves.
What do trolls smell like online?

 

[Shane Lindsey]

 

[SecretSquirrel38]

Gases disperse with the rifling, therefore unburnt powder will have virtually zero affect on bullet path, it will be dispersed away from the bullet, not towards it.

Cheers.

It there any data to back that up? Not being a SA. Just looking for evidence of it.

 

[Rosebud]

That was what different crown shapes are for, disperse the gas out away from the bullet. Rifles with worn, damaged crowns shoot better with flat base bullets because of that.
Learn about the different crown shapes and why.
Boat tail bullets are effected more from a bad crown or damaged one as the gas presses against the tail end on one side causing yaw.

 

[MagnumManiac]

It there any data to back that up? Not being a SA. Just looking for evidence of it.

What @Rosebud said above is correct.
My last 3 6.5mm barrels have all had 11° crowns, shoot boat tails exceptionally well. My previous barrels ran 13° crowns and prior to those they were flat.
Flat crowns are not ideal for VLD bullets.
If you want proof, instead of reading GRT, watch slow mo videos to see what we're talking about.

Cheers.

 

[Carbine Kid]

You have the rifle, the shooter, the shooting bench or rest, and the weather conditions.

You might have a rifle that is a .5 MOA rifle in a mechanical rest. Put it in the hands of a shooter from a good rest and it might be a .75 MOA gun. Move to a shaky bench and you might be 1 MOA. Stand him up and it might be a 1.5 or 2 MOA. Throw in some wind and groups will open up. Maybe a handload that was developed in the summer and shot in the winter or vice versa.

Take a crappy shooter and do the same and he might be all over the place no matter what the conditions. Someone I hunt with has to be dragged to the range to verify zero prior to a season. They are horrible. They tend to surround animals rather than hit them. No rifle is sub 1 MOA in their hands.

I shoot NRL22. I see new shooters posting groups at 25 yards with low tier rimfire ammo. They declare that you do not have to use match ammo to shoot rimfire PRS. I ask how it shoots at 50 or 100 and beyond. No one likes to hear that. They like the looks of their small groups with Armscor, Remington Yellow Jackets, Winchester Bulk, or even CCI SV. Move it out to 50 yards or 100 yards and you will se the fliers and have the misfires with the cheaper stuff. No one likes to face reality. I am not a very good NRL22 competitor. I am not able to shoot a match every month. I am routinely in the lower half of scores at my club. I know that and I am OK with that. I just do not have the time. From a bench I am pretty good. I use good ammo. I do not shoot 3 round groups at 25 yards and call it good.

Shooting one sub MOA group does not make a rifle a sub MOA gun. Discounting flyers does not magically make the group smaller. 3 round groups are not enough.

I could not agree more.
Groupsize acceptance depends on what you are shooting at and with.
A fully tuned rail BR gun should always return .2in groups
Whereas a varmit gun should shoot sub MOA nad a big gamer atsub 2 MOA is fine.
As I have said in a previous post here, Dont obsess over a Non blueprintrd factory rifle. Enjoy shooting it.

 

[FEENIX]

It there any data to back that up? Not being a SA. Just looking for evidence of it.

If you want proof, instead of reading GRT, watch slow mo videos to see what we're talking about.

Cheers.

Brother Tony, perhaps this might help.

 

[Opa-lopa]

Gases disperse with the rifling, therefore unburnt powder will have virtually zero affect on bullet path, it will be dispersed away from the bullet, not towards it.

Cheers.

Respectfully disagree. Unburnt powder leaves the muzzle at hi velocity & from a bullet path deflection perspective, the bullet is most sensitive to impacts at the base of the bullet applied perpendicular to the bullet axis.

 

[Culpeper]

So from what I'm hearing there is really no such thing as a true .3-.5 MOA gun. We just hope for a small amount to fall into that category. Sure makes me feel much better because I'm consistently achieving 3-4 shots within .3-.5 MOA.

Yes and no. You need to factor in shot dispersion. That is what most people are stating. Each group is a strata. Statistically, it doesn't matter that you are shooting 3 shot groups as long as you have a total of at least 30 shots to achieve that right confidence level. About half are going to be above or below your average .4 MOA. Litz takes it a step further and figured out 95% of your groups are going to be 2 SDs above or below your average .4 MOA group. The 95% is his calculated statistical confidence level. This sort of destroys that 19 out of 20 of your groups are between .3 - .5 MOA.

 

[Culpeper]

Respectfully disagree. Unburnt powder leaves the muzzle at hi velocity & from a bullet path deflection perspective, the bullet is most sensitive to impacts at the base of the bullet applied perpendicular to the bullet axis.

More like uneven pressure at the base of the bullet at the muzzle rather than powder deflecting the bullet. Typically seen with the worst of the overbore cartridges. Example a large muzzle flash with a 25-06. Overbore is not an old wife tale like some Midwest shooters would like you to believe. It's always shooters from the Midwest with those funny accents

 

[randy86314]

Hi. Late for the train. Are you able to call your shots? You can separate your bench technique from the rifle/ammo.

 

[Buckys]

Single heat stress relieved barrels tend to walk in 3-4 shots

I'm familiar with cryo and did a quick search "which rifle barrel manufacturers produce stress relieved barrel" and see that Shilen and Lilja state that they do so. I'm sure that is not all as I literally spent less time on that search than I did typing these two sentences.

Curious if there is a ready made answer to that question before I keep digging?