Who to use for Savage true job

[Tarheelpwr]

Hi,

I'm picking up a Savage 110 FCP 338 when it is back in stock. I'm looking into an action trueing. I've narrowed it down to Sin Arms and Stockade. Sin is $100, Stockade is $215. Anyone have any experience with both? Pros/cons of both?

Please don't recommend SSS. I'm not dealing with their CS.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[wbm]

Definitely would shoot it first. Truing does not always equate with more accurate but if I were going to have it done I would go with Devin at Sinarms.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Are there any potential "dangers" in lapping? If I play it right, it will end up costing me net $60ish since I get free shipping on the purchase. Just thinking its worth the investment as long as there are no "dangers".

Chris

 

[JackinSD]

Do not lap a Savage action. Visit savageshooters.com and you find a wealth of information about why not.

Truing ok, but not lapping.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Do not lap a Savage action. Visit savageshooters.com and you find a wealth of information about why not.

Truing ok, but not lapping.

Can you please elaborate what the difference is? This is my first attempt at anything like this. I'm not eve sure the difference. Here is what Devin quoted he does:

" When I true a savage I true the receiver to the thread and lugs and true the barrel nut up. That is pretty much what everyone does"

That seems in line with what you recommend.

 

[JackinSD]

Can you please elaborate what the difference is? This is my first attempt at anything like this. I'm not eve sure the difference. Here is what Devin quoted he does:

" When I true a savage I true the receiver to the thread and lugs and true the barrel nut up. That is pretty much what everyone does"

That seems in line with what you recommend.

Lapping is done to the bolt/receiver fit, which will not help a Savage action. More like will harm it. Truing is as you described above.

 

[J E Custom]

Lapping is done to the bolt/receiver fit, which will not help a Savage action. More like will harm it. Truing is as you described above.

I,m a little confused. Most people Square everything when blueprinting an action and this includes
the locking lugs on the bolt if they are not at 100% engagement and them Lap them for smoothness
(This helps ease the bolt lift).

Like all factory locking lugs they are rarely 100% and in some cases only one lug is in contact.

I have never heard not to square and lap the lugs if they are not in full contact.

In my opinion everything has to be square and true to the bore if you are going to call it blue printed.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[jbj]

I,m a little confused. Most people Square everything when blueprinting an action and this includes
the locking lugs on the bolt if they are not at 100% engagement and them Lap them for smoothness
(This helps ease the bolt lift).

Like all factory locking lugs they are rarely 100% and in some cases only one lug is in contact.

I have never heard not to square and lap the lugs if they are not in full contact.

In my opinion everything has to be square and true to the bore if you are going to call it blue printed.

Just my opinion

J E CUSTOM

The floating bolt head on the Savage obviates the need for lapping and they will square up on their own, and it will NOT help with bolt lift. Win and Rem actions benefit from this work, but not Savage.

Bolt lift can be helped with a lift kit, which is DIY, or having a smith time the bolt (only ever read about it)

Bedding will be a better $60 spent at a smith, or for the price of some Devcon and courage, bed it yourself.

If you want to true/square the action, barrel, lug and nut, it won't hurt, but seriously, shoot the gun first. You might be shocked at how well it shots.

And the advice of reading (obsessively) over at Savageshooters will give you a wealth of info. And the paid membership is well worth it.

 

[J E Custom]

The floating bolt head on the Savage obviates the need for lapping and they will square up on their own, and it will NOT help with bolt lift. Win and Rem actions benefit from this work, but not Savage.

Bolt lift can be helped with a lift kit, which is DIY, or having a smith time the bolt (only ever read about it)

Bedding will be a better $60 spent at a smith, or for the price of some Devcon and courage, bed it yourself.

If you want to true/square the action, barrel, lug and nut, it won't hurt, but seriously, shoot the gun first. You might be shocked at how well it shots.

And the advice of reading (obsessively) over at Savageshooters will give you a wealth of info. And the paid membership is well worth it.

I hear what some are saying and have to comment for those that are willing to listen.

One bit of advice to the NON GUNSMITHS. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what
you see, Unless it is from a well known Gun Smith.

IF the bolt lugs and the bolt face are not square One will throw the other off during firing.
So if you have a square bolt face and the recoil lugs are not in 100 % engagement, when the
rifle fires, the bolt will thrust back and the un-squared receiver lugs will cant the bolt face to the
Chamber, Deforming the brass and effecting the accuracy.

The bolt face is held in place by a pin and a flex washer allowing the bolt face to recoil back against
the recoil surfaces of the receiver. If it is not square to the bore and the bolt lugs are not square to
the bolt face you will have a misalignment problem.

One symptom of this is that a fired case may not want to chamber unless it is in the same orientation
as when it was fired.

Savage did not design a floating head to avoid having to square the locking lugs, They did it to be
able to build One bolt and fit different bolt faces to it. (One size fits all logic).

So What others think or do is their business but I will always square everything on an action irregardless
who makes it.

J E CUSTOM

 

[JackinSD]

I respect what you are saying J E Customs. Very Sound advice. Although more than one Savage gunsmith disagrees.

Below is a link to what was stated by a authoritative, well known Savage Gunsmith. He goes by the name Savageshooter. Anyone who knows Savage Gunsmiths knows his name.

Lug lapping tool for full contact.

 

[jbj]

I hear what some are saying and have to comment for those that are willing to listen.

One bit of advice to the NON GUNSMITHS. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what
you see, Unless it is from a well known Gun Smith.

IF the bolt lugs and the bolt face are not square One will throw the other off during firing.
So if you have a square bolt face and the recoil lugs are not in 100 % engagement, when the
rifle fires, the bolt will thrust back and the un-squared receiver lugs will cant the bolt face to the
Chamber, Deforming the brass and effecting the accuracy.

The bolt face is held in place by a pin and a flex washer allowing the bolt face to recoil back against
the recoil surfaces of the receiver. If it is not square to the bore and the bolt lugs are not square to
the bolt face you will have a misalignment problem.

One symptom of this is that a fired case may not want to chamber unless it is in the same orientation
as when it was fired.

Savage did not design a floating head to avoid having to square the locking lugs, They did it to be
able to build One bolt and fit different bolt faces to it. (One size fits all logic).

So What others think or do is their business but I will always square everything on an action irregardless
who makes it.

J E CUSTOM

J E - The link you posted, as well as conversations with a few Savage gunsmiths is why I posted what I did.

I know that Savage designed the floating bolt head for ease of manufacturing and parts compatibility. My point was that it benefited us by making it less necessary to correct via lapping for accuracy purposes. Fred Moreo did a pretty good job of explaining here Savage Shooters - Fred Moreo - Timging & Truing Explained

I hear his CS isn't the most timely, but his work is highly spoken of.

I am in no way discounting your advice or knowledge and experience in the area, and am interested to understand more of your process vs others. (By the way, you make very nice looking rifles)

Thanks

 

[dust]

Might have already been posted, but there is a guy that sells bolt lift kits on savageshooters.

 

[J E Custom]

J E - The link you posted, as well as conversations with a few Savage gunsmiths is why I posted what I did.

I know that Savage designed the floating bolt head for ease of manufacturing and parts compatibility. My point was that it benefited us by making it less necessary to correct via lapping for accuracy purposes. Fred Moreo did a pretty good job of explaining here Savage Shooters - Fred Moreo - Timging & Truing Explained

I hear his CS isn't the most timely, but his work is highly spoken of.

I am in no way discounting your advice or knowledge and experience in the area, and am interested to understand more of your process vs others. (By the way, you make very nice looking rifles)

Thanks

Thanks for the complement on the appearance of my rifles. I think that a custom rifle should look good
as well as shoot good.

Everyone has different ways of dealing with the accuracy issue. Some feel that some things are not
worth the effort because you may only gain a few thousandths in group size. Others Like my self
believe that any operation that will true everything to the bore is worth the effort.

I feel that is the process of elimination, If I resolve every issue that I can I have a better chance
of producing a sub 1/4 MOA rifle. That includes starting with the best barrel, A trued action, A quality
stock, Best Trigger and a good pillar bedding.

If all of this is done the only things that should lessen the accuracy is the Loads and the shooter.

A properly assembled rifle should take away any excuses for poor accuracy except those two.

I will be the first to admit that I am anal about everything being as good as I can get it, And I don't
want to be second guessing myself as to what should have done or could have done when I start
shooting it and It doesn't meet my expectations.

The main advantage is consistency, and the ability to shoot well with any load. and have several
loads that will out shoot Me on any given day.

I never rate anyones work until I have to dissemble there work and find things are over looked,
or simply not important enough to bother with in there mind.



I don't post my rates because I have much lower overhead than some and it would not be apples to apples
pricing. I will say that it cost less blue print a Remington than a for a Savage because there are two more
set ups because of the "Floating Bolt Head" (Setups are time consuming).


Having a V Block in a stock does not guarantee accuracy (Some do well and others don't)
Most of the inserted stocks have a built in flaw, The pillars that should touch the bottom to work
correctly DON'T. when I bed one of these I first machine a insert to fit in the pillar that extends
up to touch the action. Look at your HSP and you will see that the pillars are below the stock line.
This produces bending moment in the action when tightening the bedding screws.


J E CUSTOM

 

[Tarheelpwr]

Thanks for the complement on the appearance of my rifles. I think that a custom rifle should look good
as well as shoot good.

Everyone has different ways of dealing with the accuracy issue. Some feel that some things are not
worth the effort because you may only gain a few thousandths in group size. Others Like my self
believe that any operation that will true everything to the bore is worth the effort.

I feel that is the process of elimination, If I resolve every issue that I can I have a better chance
of producing a sub 1/4 MOA rifle. That includes starting with the best barrel, A trued action, A quality
stock, Best Trigger and a good pillar bedding.

If all of this is done the only things that should lessen the accuracy is the Loads and the shooter.

A properly assembled rifle should take away any excuses for poor accuracy except those two.

I will be the first to admit that I am anal about everything being as good as I can get it, And I don't
want to be second guessing myself as to what should have done or could have done when I start
shooting it and It doesn't meet my expectations.

The main advantage is consistency, and the ability to shoot well with any load. and have several
loads that will out shoot Me on any given day.

I never rate anyones work until I have to dissemble there work and find things are over looked,
or simply not important enough to bother with in there mind.



I don't post my rates because I have much lower overhead than some and it would not be apples to apples
pricing. I will say that it cost less blue print a Remington than a for a Savage because there are two more
set ups because of the "Floating Bolt Head" (Setups are time consuming).


Having a V Block in a stock does not guarantee accuracy (Some do well and others don't)
Most of the inserted stocks have a built in flaw, The pillars that should touch the bottom to work
correctly DON'T. when I bed one of these I first machine a insert to fit in the pillar that extends
up to touch the action. Look at your HSP and you will see that the pillars are below the stock line.
This produces bending moment in the action when tightening the bedding screws.


J E CUSTOM

How do I get your rates then? I want to compare? Do you have a site?