Which neck turning tool, 21st or PMA?

[squeeeeze]

Been searching and reading and think I've narrowed down to 2. Curious as to which I should go with and why.

I am going to be turning 2 different calibers and a few cartridges. I did already order a K&M complete setup in .284 and ordered the PMA case holders and driver adapter as it seems the driver/holder system that was reccomended a lot.

Wanting to get a 2nd brand to compare and not have to change out cutters and pilots every time I switch cartridges. Looks like the PMA is more $ for the setup but by the time I add in an additional cutter for a different angle price is comparable. Add in a few 21st cutters and they get pricey.

So wondering which is a better option between the PMA and the 21st hand turning setup? Likes/dislikes on both?

I like the looks of the whole turning lathe 21st system. Do your hands get tired holding the turner? Is a lathe reccomended? How do people like the 21st lathe system compared to just handheld turning?

 

[Tesoro]

Hi from a gadget freak: I have a k&m and I works good enuf but if i remember right they didnt offer diff angled bits to match your shoulder. Also I couldnt stand the casehead holder until I figured out that a forester die ring fit perfectly on it to aid in locking/unlocking the case.
I used my k&m with a small battery powerdrill and the ergo grip. I felt like I had to use loose hands on both sides to counter wobble.

I have alot of k&m tools and my only real complaint is that the person who designs them must have small hands.

And then I tried the 21C. I got the lathe one and I really like it. I think its the only one made that has rubber buffering on both sides to counter any wobble. It is very precise and once you get the hang of it speed wise it will turn to .0005 consistently. The diff angle bits work great for turning the last bit of your neck and just a hair into the shoulder. The case head holder is tits to lock/unlock. I use my same small battery drill with it.

Swapping out and setting up cutter heads is not the fastest thing to do but I guess the more you do it the quicker it gets like with all of them. It is an expensive set up but finely made and well thought out. This is the 'c' model of neck turners in my view. The 21c fellow used to make equip for Sinclair and then branched out on his own to make 'improved' reloading tools. All the 21c equip I have bought is the only stuff I own that I havent automatically detected design flaws once using them. (other than the wheel for the concentricity gauge)

Not plugging 21c and can say the order process was a screw up and bad communications on questions. Its a one man operation and he is busy. Caveat: the return policy has a re-stocking fee so dont buy ' a la midway' and then send back what you dont like.

 

[squeeeeze]

Ya I like gadgets too lol. I'd ordered the cutter setup for the K&M but went with the PMA case holder as it seemed to be the best design in handheld and centering on the primer pockets and supposedly doesn't take much to tighten.

The K&M cutter is a 50* cutter which I realized after it was ordered, was wondering why there weren't options for different angles but I guess it'll do all haha. To a newb it made it less confusing though.

Seems like the 21st C products are well made and thought out as you were saying. I'll get a low rpm (0-600) drill or screwdriver for what I go with.

What do you mean when you say the 21st C is the "C" model of neck turners? As in "A" being the best and "C" being average?

On a side note I just sold my Sinclair concentricity gauge and went with the 21st C gauge setup with the concentricity wheel. I bought the whole system for the ease of use and almost exclusively because of the wheel but find it to be more of a hassle at times. It wants to roll the whole case forward and then have to screw with angles of the wheel. My Sinclair was easier to use, setup, adjust, and less cumbersome. What design flaw are you talking about on that?

 

[Mikecr]

IMO, you can't beat PMA/Sinclair turning systems.

 

[Tesoro]

Ya I like gadgets too lol. I'd ordered the cutter setup for the K&M but went with the PMA case holder as it seemed to be the best design in handheld and centering on the primer pockets and supposedly doesn't take much to tighten.

The K&M cutter is a 50* cutter which I realized after it was ordered, was wondering why there weren't options for different angles but I guess it'll do all haha. To a newb it made it less confusing though.

Seems like the 21st C products are well made and thought out as you were saying. I'll get a low rpm (0-600) drill or screwdriver for what I go with.

What do you mean when you say the 21st C is the "C" model of neck turners? As in "A" being the best and "C" being average?

On a side note I just sold my Sinclair concentricity gauge and went with the 21st C gauge setup with the concentricity wheel. I bought the whole system for the ease of use and almost exclusively because of the wheel but find it to be more of a hassle at times. It wants to roll the whole case forward and then have to screw with angles of the wheel. My Sinclair was easier to use, setup, adjust, and less cumbersome. What design flaw are you talking about on that?

I meant the 'c model' being a later design.

The wheel works fine if you turn it towards you so it keeps the case turning and pushing towards the stop at the case head. What I dont like is that the rubber o-ring slips easily unless the case is dry and completely free of any lube. And mine usually are not. I found that using my finger and rolling towards me with down pressure works as good as and faster than the wheel. From my middle joint to the tip of my finger works out to be a full revolution. It works best when you do it slowly.


The gauge is in 5/10,000 so 2 hash marks equals a thou. I would prefer to have a gauge like that with 0-5 thou on the dial as easier to read. I am going to look for one that will work. The gauge that comes with the unit only costs 20 bucks at the manu site.

The screwdriver ones I looked at didnt have mouths with drill chucks and thats what you need. Small cheap drill works just fine and has 2 speeds.

 

[squeeeeze]

I meant the 'c model' being a later design.

The wheel works fine if you turn it towards you so it keeps the case turning and pushing towards the stop at the case head. What I dont like is that the rubber o-ring slips easily unless the case is dry and completely free of any lube. And mine usually are not. I found that using my finger and rolling towards me with down pressure works as good as and faster than the wheel. From my middle joint to the tip of my finger works out to be a full revolution. It works best when you do it slowly.


The gauge is in 5/10,000 so 2 hash marks equals a thou. I would prefer to have a gauge like that with 0-5 thou on the dial as easier to read. I am going to look for one that will work. The gauge that comes with the unit only costs 20 bucks at the manu site.

The screwdriver ones I looked at didnt have mouths with drill chucks and thats what you need. Small cheap drill works just fine and has 2 speeds.

I'll get a small cheap drill then, cool.

I hear ya on hard to read, that was another about my Sinclair is that it was easy to read. I don't care for this gauge that comes with the 21st either. Let me know what you come up with if you would please.

Thanks again for the respsonses guys.

 

[Tesoro]

Will do!

 

[Tesoro]

I'll get a small cheap drill then, cool.

I hear ya on hard to read, that was another about my Sinclair is that it was easy to read. I don't care for this gauge that comes with the 21st either. Let me know what you come up with if you would please.

Thanks again for the respsonses guys.

I'm back! Ref the 21c wheel and my bitchin about slippage: i went to hdwe store today n converted my wheel from looking like a road racing bike tire to a beach cruiser balloon tire by putting on a big fat o-ring. Seems to work much better now! Give it a try

 

[squeeeeze]

I'm back! Ref the 21c wheel and my bitchin about slippage: i went to hdwe store today n converted my wheel from looking like a road racing bike tire to a beach cruiser balloon tire by putting on a big fat o-ring. Seems to work much better now! Give it a try

Looks good, nice job! I'll be at Ace a Monday to get a few things and grab an O ring to try myself. Thank you.

Any luck with that replacement gauge yet?

 

[Tesoro]

I looked up the gauges...just have to search for what they are called...cant remember exact name. They seem to all have the 5/10,000 graduations as they are precision so I am going to live with it. I am already getting used to reading it faster.

The o-ring was industry#328. 3/16th width id 1 7/8 od 2 1/4

It still slips if you get lube on it from yur fingers but not as bad.

 

[Gene]

After using K&M neck turners for many years, I recently bought a PMA on recommendation from a friend. I got a .24 and a .30 mandrel ($50 each), but have not yet used either. What I do not like is that it does not have hash marks for each .0002" of adjustment. This will make it difficult to return to the same spot each time I change the setting between calibers. Any idea how to overcome this problem?

 

[Tesoro]

After using K&M neck turners for many years, I recently bought a PMA on recommendation from a friend. I got a .24 and a .30 mandrel ($50 each), but have not yet used either. What I do not like is that it does not have hash marks for each .0002" of adjustment. This will make it difficult to return to the same spot each time I change the setting between calibers. Any idea how to overcome this problem?

buy one for each cartridge! only thing I can figure out! same with my 21c. it has the proper graduations to theoretically be able ' to return to zero' but then have to swap out cutters for diff shoulder angles. A pita. easier to just have a complete head unit for each of your pet cartridges. hopefully you dont have too many!

 

[Mikecr]

What I do not like is that it does not have hash marks for each .0002" of adjustment. This will make it difficult to return to the same spot each time I change the setting between calibers. Any idea how to overcome this problem?

With enough neck turning experience you'll come to learn that settings are relatively dimensionless, as the correct settings are always relative to more than the tool itself. That being the necks themselves(thickness,hardness), their mandrel fit, lube, cutting sharpness and cut amount and turn & feed speeds.

It's like any & every sizing for target dimensions.
A die alone does not dictate results here, as all is tied to the brass itself. So none is predictable, much less set with a dial. There will always be a bit of trial & error testing/measuring to sneak into desired.

For turning, my beginning ball park setting is simply done with a feeler gage between the cutter & mandrel. If a first trial cut needs another 1/4thou, it should, I started a bit shallow, then I adjust the cutter another 1/4thou with another feeler gage. This was done with a few cases culled due to some departure from the pack, and within a few tweaks I'm typically dead nuts perfect. Then I go to my good brass.
Takes but a few minutes whether cheapest or most expensive turning system, for any prepared cartridge you want to turn at the moment.

Over the years I've used K&M, then Sinclair 1000, and presently Sinclair 4000. Neil Jones lathe.
The Sinclair systems originated from someone at PMA.
They're well thought out and make turning very easy to do well.
While I love K&M tools, I do not prefer their turning system.

 

[Tesoro]

Do you prefer to turn slower or faster? I have tried both as everyone has and for sake of time per case i speed n more lube