• If you are being asked to change your password, and unsure how to do it, follow these instructions. Click here

What is this thing called declination?

Packrat 6

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 1, 2014
Messages
1,223
Location
Arizona
I just finished up about an hour of a very unpleasant meeting because someone claimed to know what they were doing, and didn't.

My neighbor and one of his bosses who both work for a national defense contractor came over a little over a week ago and asked if I had a good compass the boss could use during the muzzle loader Deer season up around Flagstaff, AZ. Told them sure and dug out a old military M-2 compass I had liberated from the Army about 40 years ago. A M-2 is called a hand transit in civilian life and can be used to run rough surveys if necessary. Very accurate!

This particular compass was unusual in that it was calibrated in Degree's, Minutes and Seconds where most Military are calibrated (at least in the Army) in Mils. Asked him if he had a good map and he told me he did, so gave him the compass and showed him how to set off the declination with the little screw in the back. Asked him again if he knew how to use it and he got a little huffy, said he'd used them in the military, and said again, he had it handled.

The next day I asked Brian about his boss and it appears that the boss had dropped, then ran over his GPS in his driveway the day before. Great. Now, you have to realize that this guy is a real life Rocket Scientist. Well, I'd already let him use it, so just forgot about it.

Brian and his boss came over tonight and after they came in the boss literally threw the compass at me and called it a worthless ***. Then started a rant about having to walk 6-8 miles out of his way in near freezing weather, etc, etc, etc. If some other hunters hadn't found him, he would probably be still out there. He started getting loud and I Finally told him to SHUT UP! I opened the compass and looked at it and when I gave it to him, it had been set a a little over 11 Degrees for Tucson AZ declination which being in the West is a negative declination. It was now set at about 12 degrees Positive declination which is a East coast declination. Started asking him about why he had changed it so radically, and come to find out he knew NOTHING, absolutely nothing about declination so he had gone home and looked it up on line, found out that the declination at Flagstaff was about 12 degrees and then HE SET IT THE WRONG WAY! The compass was set about 22 -23 degrees out of alignment.

Because he was Brian's boss and I didn't want to cause any friction at work for Brian, by calling him a stupid A** in front of Brian, I asked Brian for some time alone with his boss and then sat down at the kitchen table and drew a schematic showing him exactly what he had done. Once he realized what had happened, he calmed down immediately, apologized, and then finally left. The thing that PO'd me was that he had immediately blamed the compass.

A great tragedy could have unfolded here, just by not knowing what he was doing. The thing that crosses my mind is that he could have gotten more lost than he was, died from exposure and I wouldn't have gotten my compass back until they found his body!

Anyway, for all you great unwashed, declination is basically the measurement of the angle of difference between True North or Grid North and Magnetic North. Magnetic North is not a constant. Magnetic North is created by a large ball of Magma, moving under the earths crust from West to East just North of central Canada right now. It changes every year by a small amount, but that amount is cumulative. If you check the bottom of any good Topographic map, there is a "V"shaped declination diagram symbol showing the difference between Grid North, True North and Magnetic North, based on the date the Map was printed. There are also notes telling you of the amount of change each year. If you take your dad's old familiar map from the 1950's the declination is not the same as it is 60 plus years later, but the adjustments at the bottom and declination notes will tell you how much to add or subtract for each year since the map was printed, and it can be significant.

Generally for land navigation in situations you'll find yourself, you can ignore True north and orient the map and compass to grid North. By offsetting the declination difference between Grid and Magnetic North, you will be able to align the grid lines along the side of your compass because the magnetic North arrow on the compass and the grid lines will be parallel., Then you can determine a true MAP azimuth to the set of coordinates or land feature you are aiming.

If aiming for a road or river where you know your camp is located, rather than come across it and wonder which way to go, right or left, set your azimuth a few degrees left or right when you start so when you hit the road, you know to turn right, or left.

Anyway, the point I want to make is lto learn to use the equipment you have and learn to use it RIGHT. As bad as it may sound, buy a book, take a course, and if you are relying on a GPS, always carry at least 2 Sets of extra batteries for it. I've been in a hurry, didn't check it, and had the GPS go down and more than once I've put a new set of batteries in equipment that were dead from the start.

Anyway, I wanted to say this to his face, but didn't:, IT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!....ROFL.

Anyway, sorry this is so long, but had to get it out of my system.

Sharp Shooter.gif
 
Anyway, the point I want to make is lto learn to use the equipment you have and learn to use it RIGHT. As bad as it may sound, buy a book, take a course,

View attachment 41995

Good read. I don't know about unwashed, but no military, or scout training. City Parks usually has a summer program. I might have to take it this year. If it coincides with my summer grooming.:D
 
Carl,
Actually there are a few minor errors in it, but I was so PO'd when I wrote it I didn't catch them. You are actually orienting the map to magnetic north to get a magnetic azimuth rather than orienting the compass to the map. Really just a matter of semantics, the end result is the same.

As far as the "Great unwashed" comment, it was from a was stolen from a politician in, I think Kansas, back in the late 60's or 70's that thought he was off camera and made a comment similar to "the great unwashed masses that think they have a say in running the country" referring to his constituents and an upcoming election. After it was televised, for some reason, he didn't get re-elected. Didn't seem to matter, the present day politicians seem to have adopted it as an attitude towards the balance of the population. Nothing personal meant by it for anyone on this site.

Do all my personal grooming in spring and fall. Just too hot in summer to bother....:D

Packrat

Mouse.gif
 
I got to thinking about the "Great unwashed" comment and remembered that one of the news crews from NBC or CBS or one of the others got the bright Idea of disconnecting the light on the front of their camera so no one could tell when the camera was running or maybe they reversed the lights, don't remember. They caught a lot of the politicians of the time with totally unrehearsed comments until finally the politicians blackballed them from their rally's.

The news agency had to finally replace the crew with another and assure the politicians that it wouldn't happen again, but was a real eye opener while it was going on.....Funnier than H*ll.

Packrat

Mouse.gif
 
With the listening equipment available today imagine what they hear, but don't show.

I didn't take the unwashed personally, just riding the joke along.
 
Carl,
My neighbor Brian, came over after he got home from work and told me he was a bit apprehensive when he first went in to work today and after he'd been there about a half hour, the supervisor called him in, closed the door and apologized for his behavior. Told Brian that the screw up had been his, not the equipment. Brian said he manned up pretty decently, at least to him.

Well, I guess everything is well that ends well, but he seemed typical of a lot of senior management personnel that have all the answers, but don't have a clue about the questions. God knows i worked with enough of them to recognize one when I meet them.

Oh well, on with the important stuff...

djones ( Hog Hunting, In the ear, right?) is going on a trip, and it's going to be boring as heck around here without someone to pick on.

Regarding Military/Scout training, was trained as a surveyor by the Army and traveled all over the world putting in Long Range Missile firing sites during the very early 60's cold war. Did it for 6 years except for one year (1966) in Vietnam where I was a Recon Sgt on a Artillery Forward Observer team because they didn't need surveyors in the "Nam" and the Survey Sgt's, knew Azimuth, Distance, Coordinates, Land Navigation and how to call in Artillery fire.

Lost the Lt early on and the suckers left me and my RTO out in the jungle attached to the infantry for 11.5 months. Mainly lots of boredom accented with segments of tighten the pucker strings type stuff. Either had the GI Quick steps from the "C" Rats or was constipated for a week, or both simultaneously, which trust me isn't easy. Talk about excreting a masonry modular unit....:D

Packrat

Mouse.gif

.
 
Carl,
My neighbor Brian, came over after he got home from work and told me he was a bit apprehensive when he first went in to work today and after he'd been there about a half hour, the supervisor called him in, closed the door and apologized for his behavior. Told Brian that the screw up had been his, not the equipment. Brian said he manned up pretty decently, at least to him.

Well, I guess everything is well that ends well, but he seemed typical of a lot of senior management personnel that have all the answers, but don't have a clue about the questions. God knows i worked with enough of them to recognize one when I meet them.

Oh well, on with the important stuff...

djones ( Hog Hunting, In the ear, right?) is going on a trip, and it's going to be boring as heck around here without someone to pick on.

Regarding Military/Scout training, was trained as a surveyor by the Army and traveled all over the world putting in Long Range Missile firing sites during the very early 60's cold war. Did it for 6 years except for one year (1966) in Vietnam where I was a Recon Sgt on a Artillery Forward Observer team because they didn't need surveyors in the "Nam" and the Survey Sgt's, knew Azimuth, Distance, Coordinates, Land Navigation and how to call in Artillery fire.

Time will tell with your young friend, my observation truth telling is rarely a good career move. The parable of the "Shrewd Manager" in the New Testament still rings true a couple of thousand years later.

I envy you guys the hogs, kind of keeps things revved up year round.

The Scout training I missed was the Cub Scouts.

Thanks for your service!
 
Pride...

A couple of times around Flagstaff, I got turned around. Spent a night in the woods one time and found my way out the other time with a compass due to being socked in by fog with no visible landmarks. I've had GPS's fail on me three different times, the most recent of which was this season. I've wandered around the desert better part of a day looking for my truck when I decided I better get a compass and learn how to use it. Basic compass skills are fun to learn and they can sure come in handy.
 
Mike,

Yep, but he problem is getting people to learn to use them RIGHT. If this yahoo had told me he didn't understand about declination, I would have shown him how to set it and would have even gone on line to get it for him for Flagstaff. Actually if he had just left it alone, it was only 1 degree different from what was already set on it and he wouldn't have ended up lost, apparently wet and cold.

Not only that, his attitude was one that I just don't tolerate well and he managed to irritate me the first time I met him with his "I've got all the answers" attitude, and I was doing him a favor....?

Oh well, guess it takes all kinds.

Packrat

Mouse.gif
 
Just an additional note about the compass I loaned out to what's his face. I stated the that the civilian version of what I loaned him was called a hand transit, BUT there are several different kinds of hand transits. BTW, they are called Brunton Hand transits if looking them up online.

The military types (M-2) are usually divided into mils, with the bezel ring (the numbered ring at the perimeter that you determine your azimuth from) showing 6400 mils to a complete circle. This is a metric unit where 1 mil = 1 meter wide at 1000 meters and is used extensively in Artillery Fire Control among other things. Also, most military maps are in meters. Well, except for maybe the Air force which is a little slow when it comes to LAND navigation.....AND the navy which has Very little use for Land Navigation....:) The Army and Marines have their Feces consolidated!

There is also a hand transit which the Bezel ring is divided into 4 each, 0-90 degree quadrants, labeled North, East, West, and South and is for specialized usage. I have been told that one of these uses is for use in mines where the angles of a cross tunnel don't need to be given in degrees more than 90 Degree's, but somehow this doesn't seem right. Maybe someone else knows how this one is used.

The type that I have and which was unusual for the Army,has the Bezel ring divided into 360, Degree's, Minutes, and Seconds, although the minutes and seconds are not marked on the ring. Generally, this is what you want., unless you are living in a metric country and they use the mils...???????

If you decide to buy one of these type compasses, which can run into the Hundreds of Dollars, make sure that you check to make sure you have the correct Bezel ring. Also make sure it has the declination offset adjustment, usually geared, the compass needle lock which pushes the compass needle up against the glass to lock the needle in place when traversing rough terrain and not in use, (one of the reasons I hate cheap compasses, they will get you killed when the needle dismounts from the spindle) and a GOOD carrying case, usually heavy leather or heavy plastic. which won't damage the compass if you fall on it. (PLASTIC? I know, but the heavy plastic has shown itself to work fine for the military)

Someone else had asked me about acquiring one like mine, about a month ago so I checked into it for him and when I saw the pricing, and already having one that would cost over $300.00 to replace, decided to squander about $25.00 and order a heavy plastic duplicate through China. It hasn't got here yet, but when it does, am going to beat it to death trying it out and see how it performs compared to mine. If it works, will recommend it, if not will advise him and watch him go into price shock when I tell him what it will cost. I will have the respirator handy!....:D

I used to brag that you could drop me anywhere in the world, excluding both poles, with just my K-bar fighting knife, compass and appropriate clothing and I would not only survive, but thrive. I can still make that claim. (except now I will need a 36' RV, two ATV's, a small boat, 300 Gallons of fuel, 3 different caliber rifles and ammo, fishing equipment and an air drop of food supplies weekly. Other than that, I'm still the same man)....:D

Hope this was of some help to someone.

****, wrote a book again, but then again, I'm still being paid by the word, Right Mr. Bacus?.....:)

Packrat

Mouse.gif

The US Army and the US Marines are judged to be some of the best fighting men in the world! The main difference between them is that in addition to being great fighting men, the Army are also great lovers!...Packrat, 2014....ROFL
 
Packrat,

Great stuff. I use a compass infrequently anymore and need to bone up on the basics. Thanks for jogging my memory. I'm very interested in the China special your testing but it would be nice to have a really nice one like the one you described. Keep us appraised.
 
Will Do!..I have gotten some high quality, name brand stuff that was made in China lately...Seems like they beefed up their quality control or finally realized that we weren't buying the poorly made stuff. Even some of the stuff at Harbor Freight has been upgraded, but I still won't buy anything from there where I have to count on the quality of the steel.

Did you want to subscribe to my testing service????...Very reasonable...:D

Packrat

Mouse.gif
 
Did you want to subscribe to my testing service????...Very reasonable...:D

Packrat

View attachment 42073

Considering your location, just leave it on the dashboard. If it doesn't melt into the heater/defrost vent, it's good!

The AZ desert is a great place to learn to use a compass. Flat desert, nearest landmark is 20 miles away, scads of 2-track roads to confuse you, gullies that you can't remember crossing... My feet hurt just thinking about it.
 
What is really funny is having visitors saying, "Hey, I'm going to walk over to that hill over there" and then disappear for 3-4 Hours and just about the time you are firing up the ATV to go get them, here they come gasping for water. That hill looks like it about a half a mile and is actually 7.8 miles over there with 18 gully's between here and there and it looks flatter than an adolescent girl. Most of them get smart and come back in about half a hour, but there is always someone who just can't admit they are wrong.

The dashboard trick won't work now cause it's colder (45 F) than a Penquin's posterior. (At least to us acclimated to the heat) We even had some of that stuff yesterday that falls out of the sky and is wet! Can't remember what they call it....:)

Anyway will keep you advised on the testing.

Sure you don't want to subscribe......?

Packrat

Mouse.gif
 
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top