WHAT CALIBER???

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by rgvt4, Jan 8, 2019.


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  1. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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  2. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Because a few gun writers said belts are bad and it thus became fashionable to repeat it.
     
  3. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    The one banned subject on this forum is the *Rule 1 Violation*s of Long Range Hunting.

    Please respect the rules of our host.
     
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  4. TG-5150

    TG-5150 Well-Known Member

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    The O.P., are they o.k.? There has not been a response in several pages. Lol
    Some very good reasons for the two main cartridges mentioned (300wm and WSM) have been mentioned already. Whichever case he picks, Will most likely be in the 40.00 to 50.00 per box ammo. Can he make shots at 800 ? Don’t know, it’s my place to say. But instead, while reading all 9 pages, I couldn’t help but think that they could have someone like Steve @ Hammer Bullets do a load development for them. The O.P. says they don’t reload for whatever reason. Shucks, they could be military trained for all we know, or deployed and no5 have the timor just plain terrified of reloading.

    https://hammerbullets.com/product/custom-load-development/
     
  5. johnlittletree

    johnlittletree Well-Known Member

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    Their is nothing new about it from a technology stand point. Nothing is dumber for a consumer than to be stuck with something that only one company has rights too. Look what happened to Beta Max not only was their issues with tape length but Sony was stingy at first with licensing the technology and that is why it lost out! Same thing goes for Sony Mini-Disc. Anyone remember Chrysler doing their own thing with radio dimensions and lugnut being lefty tighty righty loosey just the opposite of the rest of the market in America sure it made people go to the dealership for even common parts but it hurt sales and loyalty in the long run. So much so that they needed a bail-out in the form of zero interest loans and a non-compete contract for the M1 Battle Tank and it's terrible turbine engine design which was no-compete contract as well! So proprietary seldom means anything good in many area's rifle cartridges being one of those area's!

    I would love for you to educate us all on what "New Technology" if any of the PRC cartridges. In fact there is so little new in brass cartridges that outside of the powders today designed to fuel large capacity magnums the Americans and Germans could easily of made the 300 PRC or 6.5 PRC in 1903 or sooner. If you went back in time and gave them the aerodynamic info you would need to design a VLD bullet they could manufacture the bullets of modern aerodynamics. Like wise progressive stamping was in use in WWI to make the German Army Helmets so quality brass was not an issue. If you gave the Germans, Americans, French the idea of a partition bullet or the idea to solidly solder or bond the lead alloy to the gilding metal jacket the technology for that was also readily available. Most of the things we take for granted today where not technological advancements in manufacturing it was the idea to do it or that it was needed. Concentricity of jackets and cases could not be as tight as today but man power was so cheap you would just focus on sorting them better.

    You save maybe 4 ounces in total weight going to a short action instead of a long action that is it. Shorter actions are not more accurate than longer actions or cannon breeches with interrupted threads instead of distinct lugs would be in use especially for BR competition or Remington Rolling Blocks would be the most accurate actions on Earth given their stiffness. These shorter cartridges do not do anything substantially better than cartridges from 1945-1970 do! The brass is the same old technology and materials, the powders on the market have not radically changed in the last 10 years not enough to amount to much. Primers same old technology. Bullet material technology nothing really new same lead alloys and same choices for gilding(sp) metals used. Actions and Barrel materials and technologies and ignition systems.

    So the emperor has no clothes in the following area's:

    1)Newer cartridges have new technology baring powders and VLD aerodynamics in materials or designs that could not have been achieved with WWII technology.
    2)Short actions are more accurate than longer actions.
    3)Steels used today for rifle receivers and barrels offers a meaningful improvement over those in use since WWII.

    That does not mean their is not more advanced technology that we could use only that it is not in common use in this market segment. All of the modern design changes made post WWII have been made mostly to make a rifle cheaper. The Remington 700, Winchester Model 70 push feed, Savage 110 where all designed to make a rifle cheaper than a Mauser LR action. There is not a single action mass produced rifle today that is better than what was designed 1898 to about 1903. Now their are elements of many modern push feed round bar stock actions with out one piece forged bolts that make it far easier to achieve incredible accuracy much more consistently than older designs. Sadly the accuracy potential was not the reason for these designs each one of them and more have all come out of cost reduction. Every new rifle design is a step backwards in strength, durability, reliability, ease of maintenance and repair in field! The use of MIM, Sintered Metal and Cast parts does not improve anything that is about cost savings primarily. Making a bolt from many tiny components is not to make it better it is to make it cheaper.

    The only thing that has really improved is the ease at which we can consistently build in mass production to tighter clearances and less tolerance stacking if we want too!

    The weak point in a rifle is the brass which is why we do not see more advanced steels in use even though we have some incredible steels today. In fact far better steels could be used in barrel making but it would be much harder on tooling which drives up cost. In fact if you look at what Marlin made just a Decade or so ago compared to the more modern Remington made Marlins you see that the fit, finish, clearances and tolerances of the Marlins made a decade ago are much better to what is being made today. That is true of mechanical fit and cosmetic fit and the cosmetic finish and the metal to wood fitment.

    I should add that BRNO/CZ/Howa for example these companies offer many different steels for barrels that the importer can select from other than just 416R and 41XX steels.

    LW and the former BlackStar barrel company that used LW SS barrels had all kinds of Gunsmiths crying a river because their SS was so much harder to machine than 4140/4150 and 416R. You needed higher speeds, harder tooling and better coolant/lubricant to machine well. Not sure if they still use the same steel or if gunsmiths just got better tooling. This was about 15-20 years ago. So do not make me laugh when talking technology and mass produced rifles.

    The former Chech. Republic was using CHF barrels on the M48 Mausers and SKS's they made post WWII. The Norwegian 7.62x51 barrels that everyone loves and call "match grade" or "Competition" barrels were also CHF. I think the only difference is it was not a rotary process as advanced as we see today. I think the difference was that chambers could not be hammered in and a separate profiling step was needed but I am not 100% sure on that. I think the Germans perfected CHF during WWII so even that is old technology.

    Nothing really new or hi-tech in the Rifle and Rifle Cartridge world! In just about every way designs far better than what you can buy new today have been in the market place long before today! Keep in mind that Roy Weatherby had a lot of cartridges in the market by 1945. I think he his Mark V action came out between 56 and 68 I think so chew on that and then come talk to me about Technology in rifle actions and cartridges! LOL
     
  6. Rifleman97

    Rifleman97 Well-Known Member

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    Huh well in the states it’s not too hard to find, obviously not near as common as 30-06 but most gun stores I’ve been in recently have at least had one option in 300 wsm, and the reason the wsm ammo is so expensive (at least what I’ve found) is because the only options for the caliber found in stores is the higher end ammo, like the Nosler box ammo with accubonds and such, even in 30-06 that stuff is like $40-$60 a box sometimes (like 75 Canadian) but the difference is that 30-06 has some super cheap ammo like Remington core Lokt and stuff like that for $18 a box. Maybe it’s because the people that get 300 wsm don’t get it because it’s cheap but because they want quality (short action with high performance in lightweight rifle, high powder burn efficiency due to the short fat design, etc) so the manufacturers figure that people shooting it don’t want to skimp.



    Also they’re not barrel burners, they have roughly the same barrel life as 300 win mag, which if you consider that a barrel burner then so be it, but to most in the long range crowd, it’s your average mild magnum for barrel life.
     
  7. johnlittletree

    johnlittletree Well-Known Member

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    If you want light weight nothing hotter than 300WM for sure.

    I have owned 2 light weight 300 Win Mags one was a Browning A-Bolt the other a Howa and you would not want much lighter. Most people find they kick like a mule in rifles that light and lighter.

    A 3 contour might be heavier than you want but a 1 contour would make for some painful bench zeroing! The old Ultra Light rifles before Colt bought them and ran it into the ground where fantastic mountain rifles but they kicked rather hard because they where so light.

    My go-to contour for a hunting rifle I have to carry much is a #3. I am 6 foot 1 and built like a NFL Offensive Lineman so recoil is not a big deal for me. That said my oldest Brother in law and my two 17yr. twins are 5 foot 6-8 and 145lbs. and a 300WM punishes them. My knee's and ankles were sacrificed to the gods of college football so any extra weight in rough terrain beats my knee's and ankles up in a hurry. Now if a horse or a quad are taking me about or I am going to be in a stand a heavier barrel is fine. When I think "Big Guy" I think 6 foot 8 and built like a Redwood tree! So all things are relative.

    Also keep in mind that if you have to mail order ammo shipping can be rather expensive when looking small amounts so you want to make it worth your while when paying shipping. Also since 300 PRC which is code for "more money than brains cartridge" is always out of stock and has to be back ordered. Example: Notice there is only one brand making this proprietary cartridge and that is Hornady and this one source only lists two options. What variety and it is so plentiful and easy to get it is right up their with purchasing Unicorn horns, Ferrie Dust or Hens Teeth! It is so well known to be always sold out brass as well that it has almost mythological status as unobtanium, antomantium or vibrainium! Oh the 6.5 PRC has the same problem.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/300-prc/br?cid=23885

    On the other hand they have 105 Different options for 300 WM and the price for name brand domestic brand ammo plain to exotic is $23-$74. Most of them are in stock.

    https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetL...g&userItemsPerPage=48&persistedItemsPerPage=0

    PRC="Pretty Remote Chance" that you can buy it when you need it or want it!

    Bass Pro does not even list 300 PRC under Hornady Ammo. https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/hornady-eld-match-centerfire-rifle-ammo?searchTerm=300 PRC

    Lets check Cabelas? Nope! https://www.cabelas.com/product/HORNADY-CUSTOM-PRECISION-ELD-X-AMMO/2202319.uts?slotId=1

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/Hornady-reg-Superformance-SST-Rifle-Ammo/728460.uts?slotId=3

    So good look finding this ammo in stock online or locally. One of my favorite sayings " You cant buy what aint for sale!"

    I was at Walmart at 10:30 last night because I still had 64lbs. of meat to vacuum seal and my 15 year old FoodSaver vacuum sealer died a sudden death. The vacuum portion was working fine but the heat sealing element was not working! I went by the hunting section and automotive sections. Not a single box of any of Hornadys proprietary cartridges. I always check to see if anything is on clearance. About 4-5 years ago I got a Rugger American in 243 out the door $269 on clearance. A month ago Valvoline Synthetic 10W30 5qt. jugs $17.99 on clearance bought every jug they had. Two months ago I purchased 15-20 oil filters for my car that where normally $15 each I paid $1.50 each on clearance. Same thing for my sons truck I got 8 expensive filters for $2 each on clearance. So I always check Rifles, Ammunition, Oil and Oil Filters anytime I go to a store that has those items! If it is always out of stock or never on the shelf ever I take note of that too. Your millage may vary.
     
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  8. trhall

    trhall Well-Known Member

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    Does animal sniper count? :rolleyes:
     
  9. denobravo

    denobravo Active Member

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    practice creates dope
    its as sure a thing for some as 100 is to others
     
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  10. trhall

    trhall Well-Known Member

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    Copper Creek Cartridge will also load custom ammo for 300 winny with 215 bergers. They have a 2 step load development pkg they will work with you on which they send to you to shoot. Saves the hassle of sending you rifle to someone.
    https://coppercreekammo.com/
     
  11. trhall

    trhall Well-Known Member

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    Practice, practice, practice. I'll put my skills and equipment at 800 yards in the mountains up against 90% of the deer camp 100 yard pie plate shooters out there.
    I killed the bull in my avatar last season at 639 across a canyon with a 15 mph wind, a buck antelope at 647 with 5 mph wind, and a doe antelope at 724 all last season. All cold bore first shot hits in the crease behind the shoulder within 3 inches of point of aim. Each was from a different shooting position, sitting with sticks out front and pack for rear support on a steep side hill, kneeling with sticks and pack for rear support in tall sage brush, and prone off the bi-pod. 300 WM with 215 Bergers. I don't take a shot at an animal unless I'm 100% sure I can make it and have made it in practice.
    While I'm not a PRS competitive shooter I do practice alot but not at a range. I live in the mountains out west and spend alot of time hunting rocks in the mountains. Honing my skills at making sub moa hits out to 1,000 and beyond from real field shooting positions and environmental conditions.

    Spend the resources, time, $$$, effort to get the right tools and the skills and under good conditions an 800 yard shot for many on here is more of a sure thing than a 100 yards shot for 90% of the general population. Thus endeth my sermon. BTW, last time I checked this was a "Long Range Hunting" forum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  12. CO_Guy

    CO_Guy Well-Known Member

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    Going all the way back thru this, if you genuinely want a light weight platform, it's gotta a be a short action! At the end of the day, a 300WM or other, is only going to give you better performance with heavier bullets and more weight unless you find a way to deal with the weight.
     
  13. L.Sherm

    L.Sherm Well-Known Member LRH Team Member

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    3-4 oz. difference between Rem.LA and SA
     
  14. CO_Guy

    CO_Guy Well-Known Member

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    I agree, if you qualify the model. There are great examples where they make up this difference well, like the Tikka T3 Lite, but others where the difference is close to a pound or more, loaded, which can be substantial when hiking elevations we see in CO.