SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
Fathers usually know best..... usually but not always.
Tumbleing loaded ammo ???
- Thread starter Mark Phillips
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Fathers usually know best..... usually but not always.
Sully2
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a great idea.....until one of those rounds goes off!....
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
Didn't Myrh Busters debunk that theory some years ago? I remember watching that episode where they set of loaded rounds in an oven and while they went off and the pills ejected, they (pills) didn't go anywhere, just plopped out.... With no resistance to the pill (rifling), it don't do anything.... You need resistance to build pressure, it's not there.....
On primers, I always thought setting off a primer would make a bang... It don't. it goes basically foof and thats it. I know that first hand from setting off primers when machining my own primer plugs for my 209 inline. I wanted to get away from the 209 shotgun primers and use a primer with a more consistent flame path so I machined a breech plug to accept a Federal GM 215M match primer. testing involved igniting many primers so I know what they do (and it ain't much)...
Over the last 15 years (or so), I've finish tumbled literally 10's of thousands of rounds and never had one ignition. Not to say it's impossibe because it isn't, anything is possible given the right set of circumstances but ignition of a round in your tumbler isn't going to be the end of the world.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
Well the big question I have is: what need tumbling loaded rounds serves.
All that work. Trimming, turning, chamfer, debur, choosing the best bullets, seated with loving care.
Then to turn around and bang them into each other.
I have found tumbled rounds in my batches, usually pistol caliber but never fired one.
All that work. Trimming, turning, chamfer, debur, choosing the best bullets, seated with loving care.
Then to turn around and bang them into each other.
I have found tumbled rounds in my batches, usually pistol caliber but never fired one.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
Oh and if it is a good practice, which competition shooters and renowned long rang hunter support the idea and what is the best tumbler and medi?. Are there any additives to the media?
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
I wet tumble my cases so nothing but some cob from wallyworld (lots cheaper than gun shop cob). I don't recommend wallyworld cob for cleaning cases, it's too coarse.
Usually less than 5 minutes. if your neck tension is correct, nothing moves. If it isn't. they will move in your pocket while hunting just as easily. or banging around in your luggage....
Just to remove any sizing wax and it might just be my preference. Everyone has their 'druthers....
Can't comment on others experience or if it's 'good' practice' or not. It's my practice......
I prefer to be the captain of my own ship.
Must be ok. I happen to load for 4 other shooters and I've never had complaint one about inconsistency in accuracy or velocity.....
But then, your mileage may vary from mine.
Usually less than 5 minutes. if your neck tension is correct, nothing moves. If it isn't. they will move in your pocket while hunting just as easily. or banging around in your luggage....
Just to remove any sizing wax and it might just be my preference. Everyone has their 'druthers....
Can't comment on others experience or if it's 'good' practice' or not. It's my practice......
I prefer to be the captain of my own ship.
Must be ok. I happen to load for 4 other shooters and I've never had complaint one about inconsistency in accuracy or velocity.....
But then, your mileage may vary from mine.
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
Life insurance is optional, I'm 66.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I think you have verified through testing and answered your own question about what most everyone is saying with your SD increase.
There are many reasons "Not to tumble live rounds" and almost none to tumble live rounds.
All powders have a coating that stabilizes the burn rate and makes the powder consistent. If you alter or degrade this coating it will change or make the burn rate inconsistent shot to shot as witnessed in your results. (This was very good information because I have never tumbled loaded rounds because I did not want to find out how it effected the powder). Now we know.
There are many other possibilities of something going wrong, and I for one don't want to think about them.
In My Opinion, polishing/tumbling brass is better served by doing it to fired cases because it also cleans the inside of the case and the primer pocket.
Just because many don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean it cant be done, just that it sounds risky
to some of us and not necessary.
Just My Opinion for what it's worth.
J E CUSTOM
I think that the far bigger issue is the effect on specific characteristics of the powder. There can be no question that the tumbling that's sufficient enough to polish dull brass can effect the physical make-up of the particle. The question is whether the tumbling effects the performance of the rifle. Maybe not when shooting deer at 100-200 yards. Very possible if you extend your range to 1000 yards. Why take the chance? IMO.
This is an excerpt from a chemistry journal outlining the composition of smokeless powder, apparently a very sophisticated process. Of particular importance are the physical coatings that control the performance characteristics of the particle.
Composition and Manufacturing
The major classes of compounds in smokeless propellants include energetics, stabilizers, plasticizers, flash suppressants, deterrents, opacifiers, and dyes (Bender 1998; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987).
Energetics facilitate the explosion. The base charge is nitrocellulose, a polymer that gives body to the powder and allows extrudability. The addition of nitroglycerine softens the propellant, raises the energy content, and reduces hygroscopicity. Adding nitroguanidine reduces flame temperature, embrittles the mixture at high concentration, and improves energy-flame temperature relationship.
Stabilizers prevent the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine from decomposing by neutralizing nitric and nitrous acids that are produced during decomposition. If the acids are not neutralized, they can catalyze further decomposition. Some of the more common stabilizers used to extend the safe life of the energetics are diphenylamine, methyl centralite, and ethyl centralite.
Plasticizers reduce the need for volatile solvents necessary to colloid nitrocellulose, soften the propellant, and reduce hygroscopicity. Examples of plasticizers include nitroglycerine, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, and triacetin.
Flash suppressants interrupt free-radical chain reaction in muzzle gases and work against secondary flash. They are typically alkali or alkaline earth salts that either are contained in the formulation of the propellant or exist as separate granules.
Deterrents coat the exterior of the propellant granules to reduce the initial burning rate on the surface as well as to reduce initial flame temperature and ignitability. The coating also broadens the pressure peak and increases efficiency. Deterrents may be a penetrating type such as Herkoteâ, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, methyl centralite, or dioctyl phthalate; or an inhibitor type such as Vinsolâ resin.
Opacifiers enhance reproducibility primarily in large grains and keep radiant heat from penetrating the surface. They may also enhance the burning rate. The most common opacifier is carbon black.
Dyes are added mainly for identification purposes.
Other ingredients may be one of the following:
A graphite glaze used to coat the powder to improve flow and packing density as well as to reduce static sensitivity and increase conductivity
Bore erosion coatings applied as a glaze to reduce heat transfer to the barrel, but uncommon in small-arms propellants
Ignition aid coatings that are most commonly used in ball powders to improve surface oxygen balance
This is an excerpt from a chemistry journal outlining the composition of smokeless powder, apparently a very sophisticated process. Of particular importance are the physical coatings that control the performance characteristics of the particle.
Composition and Manufacturing
The major classes of compounds in smokeless propellants include energetics, stabilizers, plasticizers, flash suppressants, deterrents, opacifiers, and dyes (Bender 1998; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987).
Energetics facilitate the explosion. The base charge is nitrocellulose, a polymer that gives body to the powder and allows extrudability. The addition of nitroglycerine softens the propellant, raises the energy content, and reduces hygroscopicity. Adding nitroguanidine reduces flame temperature, embrittles the mixture at high concentration, and improves energy-flame temperature relationship.
Stabilizers prevent the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine from decomposing by neutralizing nitric and nitrous acids that are produced during decomposition. If the acids are not neutralized, they can catalyze further decomposition. Some of the more common stabilizers used to extend the safe life of the energetics are diphenylamine, methyl centralite, and ethyl centralite.
Plasticizers reduce the need for volatile solvents necessary to colloid nitrocellulose, soften the propellant, and reduce hygroscopicity. Examples of plasticizers include nitroglycerine, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, and triacetin.
Flash suppressants interrupt free-radical chain reaction in muzzle gases and work against secondary flash. They are typically alkali or alkaline earth salts that either are contained in the formulation of the propellant or exist as separate granules.
Deterrents coat the exterior of the propellant granules to reduce the initial burning rate on the surface as well as to reduce initial flame temperature and ignitability. The coating also broadens the pressure peak and increases efficiency. Deterrents may be a penetrating type such as Herkoteâ, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, methyl centralite, or dioctyl phthalate; or an inhibitor type such as Vinsolâ resin.
Opacifiers enhance reproducibility primarily in large grains and keep radiant heat from penetrating the surface. They may also enhance the burning rate. The most common opacifier is carbon black.
Dyes are added mainly for identification purposes.
Other ingredients may be one of the following:
A graphite glaze used to coat the powder to improve flow and packing density as well as to reduce static sensitivity and increase conductivity
Bore erosion coatings applied as a glaze to reduce heat transfer to the barrel, but uncommon in small-arms propellants
Ignition aid coatings that are most commonly used in ball powders to improve surface oxygen balance
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Thanks Greyfox
That is a great description of all of the components that go into smokeless powder. and should explain why it is not a good idea to tumble loaded rounds and risk changing/damaging any of these components.
Rough handling in the original containers could also damage the powder but with the number of cycles that a tumbler makes, it is a lot more severe. and depending on the run time in the tumbler,
it could be destroyed or at least damaged to the point of non use.
Another example of something that can/has been done that is not a recommended practice is taking primers out of the separated packaging and dumping them in a bulk container. ( I knew a guy that used a mason jar for this purpose) Explosives in a glass jar just doesn't sound good, and bulk storage is a perfect place to set a trap for your self and use the wrong primer.
If it doesn't feel right, It probably isn't.
J E CUSTOM
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
All well and good, however, betweein the initial extruding of the propellant to storage to packaging and transport, it gets banged around plenty. keep in mind that Hodgdon propellants are for the most part, manufactured in Australia, so, there is even more shaking and jostling going on from Oz to here....
The 'tooth fairy' don't magically transport propellants, real world people do via common carriers and those carriers don't treat that package or container any different from the thousands of other packages. I know that, I worked at UPS part time, in sorting, when I was going to college years ago. I tossed plenty of cartons on the conveyor, some harder than others, but they all got tossed nonetheless.
While I buy into the chemisrty I don't buy into 5 minutes in a dry tumbler impacting the propellant adversely.
Then, lets facor in factory rounds with even more handling, jostling and shaking...
It may (or may not impact a propellant adversely) thats pure conjecture on anyone's part and hasn't been proven concretely, one way or another, not at least anywhere I can find (other than people's opinions) and we all know what opinions equate to.....
I'll keep on with my regimen and you do yours....
Far as primers go, I can't see removing them from the original packaging in the firat place. Why anyone would remove them and store in a Mason Jar seems, to me, to be bordering on anal. B esides, cases of primers store conveniently and occupy little space.
You can discuss this subject to death but with no concrete answers pertaining to degredation in transit or in a tumbler for a short period impacting velocity, grouping or POI, it all distills down to just an opinion and nothing more.
This can be an open ended discussion (seems to me we have discussed this before sometime back), with no set in stone answer other than IMO.
The 'tooth fairy' don't magically transport propellants, real world people do via common carriers and those carriers don't treat that package or container any different from the thousands of other packages. I know that, I worked at UPS part time, in sorting, when I was going to college years ago. I tossed plenty of cartons on the conveyor, some harder than others, but they all got tossed nonetheless.
While I buy into the chemisrty I don't buy into 5 minutes in a dry tumbler impacting the propellant adversely.
Then, lets facor in factory rounds with even more handling, jostling and shaking...
It may (or may not impact a propellant adversely) thats pure conjecture on anyone's part and hasn't been proven concretely, one way or another, not at least anywhere I can find (other than people's opinions) and we all know what opinions equate to.....
I'll keep on with my regimen and you do yours....
Far as primers go, I can't see removing them from the original packaging in the firat place. Why anyone would remove them and store in a Mason Jar seems, to me, to be bordering on anal. B esides, cases of primers store conveniently and occupy little space.
You can discuss this subject to death but with no concrete answers pertaining to degredation in transit or in a tumbler for a short period impacting velocity, grouping or POI, it all distills down to just an opinion and nothing more.
This can be an open ended discussion (seems to me we have discussed this before sometime back), with no set in stone answer other than IMO.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Not trying to beat a dead horse but I thought you might find this interesting.
Why You Should NOT Tumble Loaded Ammunition « Daily Bulletin
You may be ok according to this information if the time in the tumbler is minimum.
I also agree that Many things in this sport are Thought to be set in stone, and as we all know,there are many different ways to do some of these things. I am also older and sometimes find it hard to change what I have done in the past.But it has happened, when I get enough good information and can prove to myself that it was a change for the better.
It is easy for me to argue for NOT tumbling because I have never done it. When I started reloading 50+ years ago, I was told by all of the reloading manuals that it was a no no .
So when I see this much controversy over an issue I start to question it myself. I am thinking about a test that will put it to rest or at least convince me that is ether OK or a bad practice.
I will post the test and my findings for all to see. IT may not change anyone's mind, but at least it should tell us something.
At any rate it has been a good discussion and helps keep the mind working.
J E CUSTOM
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
It is tough being old, especially in the morning prior to that cup of coffee...lol
I'm always under 5 minutes, sometimes just put them in and take them out (depending on how much size lube there is on the cases). Sometimes, if the cases aren't too dirty, I FL size and decap and then wet tumble so no trip to the vibrating tumbler at all after loading. Just depends on the circumstances.
I agree, nothing is set in stone. For decades, loading for jump was a big NO and along comes Berger and states right in their loading manual, the procedure for jumping, loading charges over maximum published load data and how it impacts not only POI but velocity and kinetic energy... of course with a disclaimer (that any company or sane individual would include).....
I abide by their regimen and not just with VLD's but every pill (except straightwall cartridges) I load.
So, nothing is set in stone.
Do the test and post the results. Jusr keep in min d that if you vibratory tumble loaded rounds, keep it short, below 5 minutes which is the longest absolute increment I use.
I think you'll find no appreciable parameter differences, but I'll await your results.
I'm always under 5 minutes, sometimes just put them in and take them out (depending on how much size lube there is on the cases). Sometimes, if the cases aren't too dirty, I FL size and decap and then wet tumble so no trip to the vibrating tumbler at all after loading. Just depends on the circumstances.
I agree, nothing is set in stone. For decades, loading for jump was a big NO and along comes Berger and states right in their loading manual, the procedure for jumping, loading charges over maximum published load data and how it impacts not only POI but velocity and kinetic energy... of course with a disclaimer (that any company or sane individual would include).....
I abide by their regimen and not just with VLD's but every pill (except straightwall cartridges) I load.
So, nothing is set in stone.
Do the test and post the results. Jusr keep in min d that if you vibratory tumble loaded rounds, keep it short, below 5 minutes which is the longest absolute increment I use.
I think you'll find no appreciable parameter differences, but I'll await your results.
