"Timing a BOLT" to Another Action????

[mindcrime]

I have an old high nickel content Rem 700 action in 25-06. I also have a little older 700 bolt (also high nickel) with a Magnum Bolt face. I'm wanting to swap the bolts to install a 1-8" twist 7mm Mag Remage barrel.......

How difficult is it to "Time the Bolt???" I was hoping to do this without PTGs kit, LOL.

Thanks for any info that you can provide.

 

[tobnpr]

Never heard of the "high nickel" distinction to which you're referring, so don't know if/how it would be relevant...

So, both LA's, what's the issue you perceive with the bolt swap? Also not aware of any "kit" from PTG?

"Timing" a bolt refers to how much primary extraction exists from the camming surface on the bolt.
It's not always, or even usually, an issue- but some M700's have it worse than others.

Lack of primary extraction is fixed by re-positioning the bolt handle on the bolt body (torch, TIG and/or silver solder).

Swap the magnum bolt into the action, and check for fore/aft "play" with the bolt closed. With the bolt closed, and applying slight rearward pressure, rotate the bolt open to see where it engages on the receiver camming surface.

If there's too much play in the bolt, it'll be almost completely open before it contacts the camming surface on the receiver.

 

[mindcrime]

Never heard of the "high nickel" distinction to which you're referring, so don't know if/how it would be relevant...

The Top Two Bolts are the Higher Nickel content bolts that I was referring to; while the lower bolt was manufactured around 1998.

The overall tolerances for the Earlier Actions were held much tighter.........just some insider information from on Old School Benchrest Friend of mine. (Ignore the silver marker lines on the top bolt handle, as I am about to fit another Badger Ordinance knob.).

BTW, here is the link to the PTG Rem Cam Clearance Kit , that I was referring to.

Thank You for the info that you shared! I'll see how the cam surface fits in a little bit.

 

[J E Custom]

Bolts on Remington 700's are normally interchangeable as far as the action goes, large to small bolt face doesn't matter if it is in the same length action, but they must be re head spaced with the new barrel chamber.

J E CUSTOM

 

[mindcrime]

So I compared the Standard Bolt and the Magnum Bolt pictured above........believe it or not, the Magnum Bolt seemed to have a much tighter tolerance at the Bolt Cam.

Mind you that this is WITHOUT the Firing Pin assembly installed in either. "If" that would actually matter.

Another thing that I will be checking is firing pin protrusion, as I swapped in a modern fluted Rem 700 firing pin and a new spring into the older Magnum Bolt.

 

[shortgrass]

Wake up, mindcrime! The new 700 are far and above what the 'older' manufactured ones are. The new are made on 5 axis CNCs, where as the 'older' made were made on manual and moved from machine to machine for each operation. The idea that "older is better" in this , is just plain garbage! I do like the older, trimmer factory bolt handle better...

 

[mindcrime]

You can't convince me of that 100% as I REMEMBER the quality issues that Remington had beyond 2006-ish. I remember the RECALLS as well.

 

[tobnpr]

Mind you that this is WITHOUT the Firing Pin assembly installed in either. "If" that would actually matter.

Not a consideration for this exercise. GTG.

 

[shortgrass]

You can't convince me of that 100% as I REMEMBER the quality issues that Remington had beyond 2006-ish. I remember the RECALLS as well.

I like your logic, it's the older ones that have had recalls on 'um! And, mostly for triggers, because some felt because there's a screw there that they need to turn it without knowing for sure what will happen. Or, for those who allow all kinds of crap to flow into the trigger mechanism. You've got a lot of so called "facts" for one who doesn't know if having the firing pin assembly in the bolt effects bolt fit, or not. In mass production, which is what Remington, Savage, Winchester, Ruger, Weatherby, Howa and many others do, it is called 'parts interchangeability'. In the factories, all parts in the bin fit all parts they were made to be assembled with to the tolerances set forth by the companies engineers. I have know idea where you come up with the 'higher nickel content' on some bolts. Have you had some tested for material content? The only testing for material content is a destructive testing method, where the sample is atomized and then analyzed. What your post amounts to is, you don't know what you don't know. That's where all the misinformation, myth and mystery comes from when it comes to firearms. Lack of training or interdnet traing, and peddling as "fact". As for primary extraction issues, Remington has had problems with that since 1962 when the 700 was introduced. Nobody complained about that, until knowledgeable gunsmiths started pointing it out!

 

[mindcrime]

shortgrass, while I appreciate your response, I've never claimed to be a 'smith.

You talk about part interchangeably, yet on the earlier Magnum Bolt I was required to cut a small slot in the right bolt lug, in order for it to fit the action......like I noted, it was an EARLY Rem700 bolt.

As for the High Nickel content on the bolt handle, one only needs to look at the handle. The color difference is from the hot bluing coming out as a totally different color than later Rem700 handles.

Thanks for the heads up about the Earlier Extraction problems.......I was considering an M-16 extractor anyway.

 

[shortgrass]

Lots of things can make bluing come out purplish,,,,,, the solution not strong enough, temp of solution too strong or too weak, part not left in the solution long enough, hardness of the material. Hardness of material is not controlled by the addition of nickle. The amount of carbon is the determining factor in how hard a usable part can be made. Nickel was an alloying element used before CM steels became 'common' and readily available (CM and other alloy steels didn't become common until WW2). A Remington 700 bolt is made up of 3 different pieces, the bolt head, the bolt body, and the handle. The bolt head and the handle are silver brazed to the bolt body. The bolt handles are cast, and castings sometimes won't color properly in hot bluing salts. This was one of the things pointed out while in gunsmithing school. Lots of lower end shotguns used a cast receiver and required special procedures to blue properly as did the Nickel Steel Springfields. Primary extraction has nothing to do with the extractor, itself. Tobner explained primary extraction in his first post. As for the groove you had to cut in the bolt lug, that is about the only design change there has been in the body of the 700 action. That groove is for the guide rail that early 700s had.

 

[LRhunter514]

If you want the bolt timed contact Accu-tig .com Daniel knows his stuff on Remington bolts.

 

[25WSM]

Mind crime the extraction issues they are referring to here has nothing to do with the actual extractor. They are referring to how much the bolt handle engaged the extraction cam on the top rest of the action. This caming effect is what starts the process of the shell coming out of the chamber. The closer you can get the handle to the front of the handle cut out the more primary extraction you will have. Most 700s out of the box only use about half of the cam. By having the bolt handle moved forward and tig welded does 2 important things. One is it gives you much improved cam ability and improves your case coming out of the chamber immensely. Two it keeps the 700 bolt from breaking off. I've seen handles come off from just dropping it at the range. Not the whole gun. Just dropping the bolt on the handle snapped it right off. But most broken 700 handles are from people hammering them open using loads way too hot. Hope this helps and yes I am a 30 yr professional smith and I happen to love 700s. In my opinion moving the handle forward on the bolt is the single best improvement you can make to a 700. Remington should definitely hold this tollerence tighter.
Shep

 

[shortgrass]

Aside the primary extraction problems the Remington 700 has and has had, they are straighter than they have ever been, and that is a plus and what matters. They're not equivalent to custom actions, but they are closer than the older pre CNC made actions ever thought about being. Set one up for truing and very little metal will need to be removed. Some have been so close as to not warrant truing, but if you've bothered to take the time to do the set-up you may as well. The bolts that come with these receivers are just as good. The old manufacture can't even come close to being as straight as the new. I buy action and bolt only, I don't tear down a used rifle unless that is what the client wants to provide. The 'new' bolt handles are clunky and ugly IMO. They get changed-out when fixing the primary extraction timing.