Taking opinions on a 30 cal cartridge for a future build

[eshorebwhntr]

Thanks for the info el matador. I'll most likely go stiller or defiance on the build. I was just curious if a700 would work because I hadn't given it any thought

 

[Bart B]

How does the stiffness of a Model 70 compare to a Remington footprint action with an integral rail and lug? Something like this one... https://surgeonrifles.com/shop/591sa-repeater/

If the Surgeon's the same outside diameter as the Remington, they're probably about equal. The 591 repeater weighs 2lbs 1.6 oz so it is very close to that of the Remington short action one. The Winchester 70 is a longer action by about ½ inch so it's better for the longer cartridges and should be compared to other long actions. That aside, the short action Win 70's are stiffer than the short action Rem 700 ones.

Remington made their 40X short action match rifles chambered for the .30-.338 and 7mm Rem Mag rounds and were a nightmare to use in matches if one had to unload a live round.

Hmmm, out of my dozen+ belted rifles I've owned and loaded for, none of them have given me 1 inkling of trouble... And all have been just as accurate as my non-belted caliber rifles.

How accurate were they?

Did they ever put 15 to 20 shots inside 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards all fired in 10 to 15 minutes properly tested with either new cases or properly full length sized ones? The OP wants a long range rifle.

And if belts were such a concern, unreliable, and not as accurate, why does the military keep deploying M24's in .300 Win Mag?

Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?

Does the military save their fired .300 Win Mag cases then reload them? I don't think so. They use new cases to see if the M24's meet accuracy specs. And from what I've seen, those specs are not all that great: "The extreme spread of any individual 10-shot group shall not exceed 9.0 inches at 600 yards. The average extreme spread of ten, 10-shot groups shall not exceed 7.0 inches at 600 yards." Therefore, specs say the ammo has to test 1.5 MOA at 600 yards; it'll be close to 2 MOA at 1000. While some lots may be better, that's what forces have to count on.

I still want to see the proof of this which you keep touting...

Get a rifle that'll shoot 15 to 20 shots inside 10 inches at 1000 yards with any case then compare both sizing methods. If you do all the right stuff with the right stuff, the difference will be easily seen.

In their heyday at long range matches, the best of the 7mm Rem Mags, .30-.338's and .300 Win Mags would test under 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards for 20 to 30 shots fired in almost as many minutes. The civilian and military team members winning and setting records learned that conventional full length sizing those belted cases then reloading them didn't equal what new cases produced for best accuracy. Military teams often gave their once fired cases to civilians as they used only new cases. Civilians learned that if a body die was made that sized only the case body all the way to the belt returning it to virtual new case dimensions, accuracy was best and equaled what new cases would produce. Check out www.larrywillis.com to see a collet die that does that quite well; best thing for belted case accuracy.

 

[MudRunner2005]

If the Surgeon's the same outside diameter as the Remington, they're probably about equal. The 591 repeater weighs 2lbs 1.6 oz so it is very close to that of the Remington short action one. The Winchester 70 is a longer action by about ½ inch so it's better for the longer cartridges and should be compared to other long actions. That aside, the short action Win 70's are stiffer than the short action Rem 700 ones.

Remington made their 40X short action match rifles chambered for the .30-.338 and 7mm Rem Mag rounds and were a nightmare to use in matches if one had to unload a live round.

How accurate were they?

Did they ever put 15 to 20 shots inside 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards all fired in 10 to 15 minutes properly tested with either new cases or properly full length sized ones? The OP wants a long range rifle.

Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?

Does the military save their fired .300 Win Mag cases then reload them? I don't think so. They use new cases to see if the M24's meet accuracy specs. And from what I've seen, those specs are not all that great: "The extreme spread of any individual 10-shot group shall not exceed 9.0 inches at 600 yards. The average extreme spread of ten, 10-shot groups shall not exceed 7.0 inches at 600 yards." Therefore, specs say the ammo has to test 1.5 MOA at 600 yards; it'll be close to 2 MOA at 1000. While some lots may be better, that's what forces have to count on.

Get a rifle that'll shoot 15 to 20 shots inside 10 inches at 1000 yards with any case then compare both sizing methods. If you do all the right stuff with the right stuff, the difference will be easily seen.

In their heyday at long range matches, the best of the 7mm Rem Mags, .30-.338's and .300 Win Mags would test under 2/3 MOA at 1000 yards for 20 to 30 shots fired in almost as many minutes. The civilian and military team members winning and setting records learned that conventional full length sizing those belted cases then reloading them didn't equal what new cases produced for best accuracy. Military teams often gave their once fired cases to civilians as they used only new cases. Civilians learned that if a body die was made that sized only the case body all the way to the belt returning it to virtual new case dimensions, accuracy was best and equaled what new cases would produce. Check out www.larrywillis.com to see a collet die that does that quite well; best thing for belted case accuracy.

In all that talk, you still have not proven to me how belts are so horrible.

No, I have never tried to put 30 rounds in 30 minutes into a 1 MOA 1K target. But my gunsmith has. He's quite the accomplished BR shooter. He shoots a .300 Ackley in HG class. If belts were such an issue, I'm sure an accomplished gunsmith, and numerous other BR shooters over the decades would have never set 1K records (at both large and small tournaments) with the .300 Ackley, .308 Baer, .300 WinMag, and .300 Wby cartridges...

From 2000-2006 the top winningest 1K BR cartridge in North Carolina 1000-yard Shooters Association was the .300 Ackley. It had 720 wins, more than DOUBLE the 2nd place cartridge, the 6.5-284, which had 354. And 3 out of the top 5 were belted magnum calibers...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/11/winning-cartridges-in-the-1000-yard-game/

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

Agree. Nothing wrong with the belted magnums..you can't go wrong with the 7mm rem mag or .300 win mag as you base case...get a good reamer and a .003 or less neck clearance , do a little experimenting with the usually components and you'll be surprised at how good both can be...most never get to see a custom cut chamber for either just factory rifles. I live and have seen lots of Williamsport 1000 matches..and you do see .300 wm's and wsm's..the new world record was shot with one--around 2.815 inches for 10 shots..besides your building hunting rifles not necessarily bench guns and there is a big difference between the two !

 

[Bart B]

Mudrunner,

I never said belted cases were horrible. Only that they needed a little different sizing methods which I described. Anyone who does all the right stuff will get excellent accuracy with them.

Looked at the groups in the links you provided. They show only the smallest groups shot; not the largest ones which better define the accuracy the cartridges give that can be counted on all the time. Any cartridge will shoot a very tiny group once in a while.

 

[Longrang3r]

One of the rimless 30 caliber magnums with a case capacity of the .30-.338 may well be the best compromise. Belted cases are too difficult to reload for best accuracy and new belted cases typically shoot bullets more accurate than resized ones.

The recoil of .30-.338 size cartridges is about the most one can handle and still get good accuracy afield hand holding it.

I'd use a Win 70 action over the Rem 700 ones. They're near 3 times stiffer and a lot more reliable plus easy to replace parts afield if needed.

Bart, I think every post I read of your's you are arguing with someone. "Belted cases are too difficult to reload for best accuracy." I'm not a mind reader, but it looks to me like you are saying Belted cases are more difficult to get to shoot accurately.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Mudrunner,

I never said belted cases were horrible. Only that they needed a little different sizing methods which I described. Anyone who does all the right stuff will get excellent accuracy with them.

Looked at the groups in the links you provided. They show only the smallest groups shot; not the largest ones which better define the accuracy the cartridges give that can be counted on all the time. Any cartridge will shoot a very tiny group once in a while.

You only need it to do it once to win or set a record...

 

[Longrang3r]

You only need it to do it once to win or set a record...

lightbulblightbulblightbulb

 

[Bart B]

I'm not a mind reader, but it looks to me like you are saying Belted cases are more difficult to get to shoot accurately.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

But it can be done.

I don't care what the smallest group is from any cartridge reloading methods. Tiniest groups happen when one of two things happen; everything's perfect and has no variables. . .or...all those variables cancel each other out. Which one happens for record group or most often? Biggest groups with a given process give a much better idea of what can be counted on all the time; all the variables add up in all directions. But that's not a popular way to think.

There's only one record group of anything; all those thousands of others are much, much bigger. The largest group in a many-group aggregate is the best descriptor of the load's accuracy.

 

[Longrang3r]

Were did I say belted cases were unreliable and not as accurate?

I'm not a mind reader, but it looks to me like you are saying Belted cases are more difficult to get to shoot accurately.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

You literally make me want to tear my eyes out. You contradict yourself countless times. Why do I even bother responding to you...smh

 

[Bart B]

You literally make me want to tear my eyes out. You contradict yourself countless times. Why do I even bother responding to you...smh

You're making the wrong comparison of my comments.

 

[redneckclimbing]

To get back on point, my personal thoughts are 300 Norma or 30 Nosler. The Norma is going to give you more velocity.

Both will allow the bullet to be seated close to the lands and still be magazine length, which I personally feel is a tremendous advantage! If you are going with a custom action it probably doesn't matter which cartridge you choose.

As far as brass goes there won't be a lot of choices either way and both will be expensive. However, if you anneal your necks and don't "hot rod" the **** out of them the brass will be one of the cheaper components when you pull the trigger.

Just my two cents. BTW, my brother and both shoot .338 Norma's on Rem 700 actions. But I would still be leary of a Lapua based cartridge on a Rem 700. P.O. Ackley could tell you why!

 

[TXAoudadKlr]

I'm quite pleased with my 300AX which is a 30-338 Lapua improved. I have a mild load that pushes a 200gr accubond to 3340fps. I could easily turn it up to 3400fps but the current load shoots sub 1/4 minute groups...

Down side is barrel life but being a big game only rifle, it will serve you over many seasons. I feel that negative is out weighed by its extreme performance and brass life.

 

[eshorebwhntr]

I'm quite pleased with my 300AX which is a 30-338 Lapua improved. I have a mild load that pushes a 200gr accubond to 3340fps. I could easily turn it up to 3400fps but the current load shoots sub 1/4 minute groups...

Down side is barrel life but being a big game only rifle, it will serve you over many seasons. I feel that negative is out weighed by its extreme performance and brass life.

Thanks for sharing. If you don't mind can you let us know the specs on your rifle and your load info.

I definitely want whatever I get to shoot from the magazine. And whatever I get will be loaded mildly. My ultimate goal was near 300 RUM performance, readily available brass, and decent barrel life. I don't want to rule out fire forming but if I can get what I want performance wise while avoiding it that would be a plus. An ancillary benefit would be getting it to shoot the way I like with H1000 or Retumbo. I don't mind adding another can to the bench but if I don't have to...another plus.

Thanks again for all the replies.