Super sonic neccessary at 1760 yds?

Alan Witter

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Aug 28, 2004
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VA
I am very confused. (Some might say that is nothing new for me.) I want to try to kill a PD at a mile or over. Currently my go-to long range rifle is a BAT/28" Krieger 300 WSM with either Burger 210 VLD's of their 215 Hybrids.
According to Berger's ballistic calculator, I will be right at super sonic velocity at a mile, or just below it. I read of shots made at a mile with lessor velocities. Is it imperative that the bullet be super sonic at a mile in order to be accurate.
Thanks for any input.
 

DanGuy48

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May 23, 2012
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Frederick, MD
If you're right at the edge of the distance where the bullet will transition to sub-sonic, it seems to me that there would not be much chance for significant deflection at that point. I'm curious also. I hear a lot about inaccuracies from transition to subsonic, but I have no idea what that might translate into practically in a scenario like yours.
 

bill123

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Jun 14, 2013
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617
Not sure I'd want to take a shot like that and risk wounding an animal w/o being sure I could kill it cleanly, but that's not what you asked, so....


Get a ballistic app that will allow you to true the program at different ranges. IMO, the APPLIED BALLISTICS app is the best. Based on your bullet's performance, the app will recommend different ranges to true the app at. One will be just before transonic. The others will be at further ranges.

Here is a link to the AB Mobile app instructions for a better explanation: http://appliedballisticsllc.com/AB_app.htm#_Toc313866253
Go to "BALLISTIC CALIBRATION"
 

BergerBoy

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I'm NOT a patriot... I am a U.S. Constitutionalist
I shoot my 300 WM over a mile and it is NOT mandatory to be supersonic to be accurate BUT transonic starts at 1339 fps so that is when instability can start.... until then the bullets' flight can be predicted accurately. However, if you can spin your bullet a bit faster it can be better stabilized at those distances and then be more accurately deployed. The longer the bullet the faster the twist needed...

I shoot a 1-8 twist with my Berger 215s and 230s. JMO
Good luck
 

MMERSS

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Feb 5, 2013
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If work associates were asked if they wanted to ELR prairie dog hunt, there would be no shortage of takers. However, views from this statement would be far from reality as this statement would not be correct. Words matter. There is no easy way around this. When knapweed starts to take control of a grain field, the invasive species must go or the farmer’s livelihood may be placed at risk, not to mention the neighbors.

Montana law articulates this best. State departments are authorized to establish programs for the suppression of vertebrate pests when they are injurious to agriculture. No doubt, agriculture is a valuable resource to the farmer, the vegetarian, and others. Suppression is none other than forced removal. Forced removal is a way to rid an invasive pest and less destructive to the environment than poison. The supersonic to subsonic sickle is a tool of use for this purpose.

What’s most interesting when collecting a group of volunteers to suppress vertebrate pests ELR, some of the volunteers are additionally opposed to long range hunting of game. How can this be? Words matter. Two primary terms form the root to this difference, resource and risk management. In Montana, game animals are a resource to the state. This resource is available under permit for the use by all hunters. Hunting game animals is managed as a privilege, not an entitlement. As such, most hunters will respect this relationship and expect the same from other hunters. This brings in risk management. Long range hunting is surrounded by a barrage of uncertainties. The resource is game, a risk (as with any form of hunting) is not allowing enough room with uncertainties for a clean harvest. Risk management is a process where the hunter recognizes pending uncertainties and applies control measures to reduce or eliminate an unwanted waste of the resource. Tools of use to assist with risk management will be addressed later and additionally ties into the OP’s question. Suppression of vertebrate pests. Grass or grain is the desired resource and not removing vertebrate pests is a risk to this resource. The term “hunting” is often associated with a requirement for one shot one kill. The term “suppression” can be associated to forced removal using tools without regard to range or number of shots required. The term “long range” by itself may tend one to believe the uncertainties are not fully accounted for leaving too much room for a misplaced shot. The term “effective range” is often associated with risk management where a hunter is aware of their capabilities to include the uncertainties and apply measures to effectively harvest a resource without unwanted waste. Although “long range” and “effective range” may be one in the same, articulating effective range up front with risk management will help pave the way toward acceptance of this hunting preference.

A great method to familiarize a sportsman with the requirements of risk management utilized during a big game hunt is during vertebrate pest suppression. This serves two fold. First, the sportsman is engulfed in the intricacies with a bullet traveling over a long time of flight. After the first shot in an infested agriculture field, from observation unwanted troublesome vertebrate pests take to hiding with an exception for those at great distance. To reduce the risk with destruction of the grain field, the extended range vertebrate pests require forced removal whether to the liking or disliking of others. Sportsman opposed to long range (effective range…words matter) hunting that have never shot at great distance will have the opportunity to help preserve a community farmer’s way of life, and for whatever reason they sure seem to enjoy helping out and want to keep coming back. This leads to the second point. Effective range hunting is not the same as extended range vertebrate pest removal although some may equate it to just that. With such a small target so far away during suppression removal, there are bound to be misses. Although every effort is made to not miss, one can only squeeze so much blood from a turnip. Remember, the goal is removal by force and to not attempt such a shot places the agricultural product (the desired resource) at risk of destruction. Assume the risk, manage it to the greatest extent, and take the shot. Percentage of success for one particular shot may be low. However, first round success is not a requirement with suppression unlike hunting, eventual forced removal of the pest is. This second point additionally parallels risk management. As with a previous post, I fully concur with the use of Applied Ballistics solvers specifically when dealing with transonic and subsonic flight and associated drop. The only way to know for sure how a bullet will react to transonic and subsonic flight is to shoot them and observe the drop. This will determine if a particular bullet will be able to maintain a desired level of accuracy and/or precision transitioning in and between these zones. Added benefits with suppression removal is the ability to effortlessly bring a laptop to the field. I strongly recommend the addition of the Applied Ballistics (AB) Analytics package as support to another Applied Ballistics solver. This package not only allows the use of Litz custom drag with a drop scale factor but adds the ability to utilize WEZ, a hit percentage analysis tool. When managing risk during a big game hunt where the first shot is a requirement to strike vitals, I now specifically utilize WEZ as a tool to assist with risk management. Ask if uncertain how to use WEZ for this purpose. Lastly, I’ve suppressed many vertebrate pests ELR with a few in the transonic to subsonic range. Most of the suppressions required more than one shot. When one shot one kill is a requirement, risk management directs the maximum distance for the shot. Vertebrate pest suppression is different and should not be used to connect the two.

“Does anyone after work want to suppress vertebrate pests that are injurious to agriculture in the supersonic to subsonic range allowing a farmer to make a living by providing quality grain used for a vegetarian loaf of bread not made out of knapweed? Afterward, we can take some pictures with our suppression forced removal tools!”….words matter.
 

phorwath

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Well I'd historically always read that accuracy is lost at the point bullets drop thru their transonic velocity.

Then more recently, as in the past several years, I read hints that some bullets can hold accuracy while dropping down thru transonic. BUT, I don't read very much supporting these more recent allegations of accuracy maintained past transonic distances.

I'd like to know the same thing. What's the current state of the technology/equipment/bullets. Is there anyone shooting groups at ranges where their bullets have dropped thru transonic, yet still maintaining any semblance of the moa accuracy that was experienced prior to transonic velocity?

I've read of some extremely long hits by military snipers on the battlefield. Distances that seemed well past transonic. Has this impediment to accuracy been resolved?
 

Str8shooterTX

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“Does anyone after work want to suppress vertebrate pests that are injurious to agriculture in the supersonic to subsonic range allowing a farmer to make a living by providing quality grain used for a vegetarian loaf of bread not made out of knapweed? Afterward, we can take some pictures with our suppression forced removal tools!”….words matter.

Yes pleasegun)
 

BergerBoy

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I'm NOT a patriot... I am a U.S. Constitutionalist
Well I'd historically always read that accuracy is lost at the point bullets drop thru their transonic velocity.

Then more recently, as in the past several years, I read hints that some bullets can hold accuracy while dropping down thru transonic. BUT, I don't read very much supporting these more recent allegations of accuracy maintained past transonic distances.

I'd like to know the same thing. What's the current state of the technology/equipment/bullets. Is there anyone shooting groups at ranges where their bullets have dropped thru transonic, yet still maintaining any semblance of the moa accuracy that was experienced prior to transonic velocity?

I've read of some extremely long hits by military snipers on the battlefield. Distances that seemed well past transonic. Has this impediment to accuracy been resolved?

Obviously, at those distances grouping can be an issue. But if you look at Litzs' book Applied Ballistics.... ALL of his hybrids have a 7 degree boat tail. I was told by him( at SHOT) that 7-8 is best when shooting long distances and through transonic.
Todd Hoddnett wrote a great article in Sniper magazine a couple years ago. He will help better explain the importance of twist rates and ELR shooting. Sorry I do not have the link.
So to answer your question: I do not think it was been "solved" but certainly minimized prehaps. With a well designed bullet and twist to stabilize your round we can shoot through transonic with some accuracy.
Transonic made most people nervous because until then you could put a numericle value on all your other factors affecting flight.
I am just a student of this area and always learning...
 

bigngreen

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Well I'd historically always read that accuracy is lost at the point bullets drop thru their transonic velocity.

Then more recently, as in the past several years, I read hints that some bullets can hold accuracy while dropping down thru transonic. BUT, I don't read very much supporting these more recent allegations of accuracy maintained past transonic distances.

I'd like to know the same thing. What's the current state of the technology/equipment/bullets. Is there anyone shooting groups at ranges where their bullets have dropped thru transonic, yet still maintaining any semblance of the moa accuracy that was experienced prior to transonic velocity?

I've read of some extremely long hits by military snipers on the battlefield. Distances that seemed well past transonic. Has this impediment to accuracy been resolved?

Historically we have been shooting though transonic very effectively, look at anything like an original Creedmore matches or if you put a scope on a BPCR it's amazing how accurate they are at 1000+ yards with a bullet that transitions at 300 yards but it's much easier to manipulate bullet design when all you need to do is cut another mold and pore some bullets.

I'm trying to get into a position to play more with it but I'm having to cut back on chamber size so I'm not having to shoot 3000 yards to get it. Even loading a 215 in my 308 is proving hard because I don't transition till 1600 ish, at 1535 there is no accuracy issue.
 

Canadian Bushman

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Some bullets do really well through the transsonic region some not so much. Its very hard to predict and the easiest way to find out is to shoot and see.

Ive always been under the impression that shooting at targets where the bullet is transitioning is the most unpredictable. Shooting before or after that range yeilds more consistent results. Ive only ever tried shooting at a target in the transitioning phase a handfull of times and found it difficult but wouldnt assume all bullets behave that way. The times i tried was with a berger 185 vld from a 1:12 twist with mv of 2570 @ +61ft sea level.

Bigngreen
Ive run the 215 to 1810yds from a 10.5 twist at sea level and they were still making round holes. Im suprised for such a long bullet but it seemed stable. The wind completely took me to school so i cant attest to any sort of accuracy claims but the few i got on target made round holes.
 
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JeffVN

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Mar 19, 2004
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Las Vegas, NV
I shoot ELR in the desert with with two PD hunters who routinely shoot our targets as well as PDs at ranges well beyond 1,900 yards using a 6XC and a 6mm version of the 22/250. The 6mm pills in the 105-107 class (and the DTACs) transition to subsonic very well.

Both of the shooters have successfully taken PDs beyond 2,000 yards (which means they were subsonic for at least 200 yards).

JEffVN
 

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