Starting with new brass

[YZEATER]

6.5 cm
New lapua brass

Been reloading 20 years. Any gun that I reloaded for with new brass I've always shot for groups at 100 yards, starting with new brass. I'd find a good load and run with it. I'd always start with the longest OAL I'd fit in the guns magwell or magazine. I'd look up data and then load .2 grain increments to Max or pressure signs.

With my new 6.5 cm I want to change the way I do things and see if I can improve. All the reading I have been doing about ladder testing, finding a node and flat spots through a chronograph.

I bought a new chronograph (Caldwell precision kit). Picked up some 147 eld m, h4350, imr4350, and lapua brass.

My questions are:

1. Do I start right off looking for a node with brand new brass that hasn't been fire formed?

2. Do I need to prep the lapua brass at all?

3. I was going to load up a bunch in .2 increments while just shooting over the Chrono and paper at 200 yards.


4. I only have about 45 rounds of cheap factory 129 interlocks through the gun so far. It shoots those great. Should I wait till I have more rounds through it.

 

[gohring3006]

I personally, will fireform new brass twice, with neck sizing.
On the third firing I set my die up to set back the shoulder .002". I'll then do a seating depth test, and then play with powder. Some guys, start right off with new brass and start load development. The guys who do that, don't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[lancetkenyon]

When I start with new brass, usually it means new load development. I go right to a ladder test with it, watching for an accuracy node and velocity flat spot. But I definitely check to see how much my brass grows at the shoulder. Some only grow .002"-.005". But others can grow as much as .015". If it is fairly close, I continue to fully work up a load with the new brass, usually trying to stay on the low end of my node, but keep everything recorded. Then go on to seating depth testing, which will also affect speeds, as the more jump you have, the less pressure you get, meaning slightly reduced velocities. It usually only takes about 45-55 shots including long range verification of drops. Then load up 50-75 more of the virgin brass to use as my loads.

I will also load up a few of the fired brass after FL sizing and bumping the shoulders back .001"-.002" and verify that velocity and accuracy are the same.

After about 100-120 rounds down a new barrel, it will speed up some, usually 40-80+ fps. If accuracy has not changed, I load up the rest and shoot the virgin brass loads first, then all brass should be formed to your chamber, and ready to go. If I have speed up out of my accuracy mode, back off a few .1 grains to get back to where you want and load them up.

 

[Mikecr]

1. Do I start right off looking for a node with brand new brass that hasn't been fire formed?

No. New brass does not present as YOUR cartridge yet. It will not be YOUR cartridge until you've made it so (with fire forming & sizing).

2. Do I need to prep the lapua brass at all?

Yes, just like any other brass. Again, the cartridge will be what you make.

 

[YZEATER]

No. New brass does not present as YOUR cartridge yet. It will not be YOUR cartridge until you've made it so (with fire forming & sizing).

Yes, just like any other brass. Again, the cartridge will be what you make.

Reading alot of the threads here it's hard to tell or the guys don't say how they got were they are.

I needed some new ideas and a few things cleared up before I start. Thanks everyone.

 

[Lonewolf74]

Hear is how I would go about it and my theories.

I would prep and size 30 cases, I'm going to use these 30 cases for my load development. Most likely in sizing your just touching and uniforming the necks. Then chamfer, debur and uniform primer pocket.

Then I would pick a lower charge weight of the powder you have chosen and do a seating depth test. Load 5 rounds starting at touching lands and back off in .020 increments to .080 off lands (touching lands, .020 off, .040 off ect). Pick the depth that shot best and load up 5 more at that same depth and charge and verify it shoots decent or as good as the first time.

The theory is your seating depth sweet spot should remain constant throughout besides a few thous tweak hear or there later on.

I would chrono these shots to see what my ES is hear, if it's poor I would switch powder or primer and start again. If your powder primer combo is good ES should be decent at any charge, it won't go from bad to good by finding a node but if it's good to start with it will get better once in a node.

Next take these 30 once fired cases and load however many up for a ladder test to find your powder node. I like to load 2 in .3 or .5 gr increments to 1.5 grains over book max. Of course look carefully for pressure signs and stop shooting once you see them. I shoot at the same spot for every shot at 350 yrds and mark every shot. I like to do 2 shots of each charge to rule out something being a fluke or if I pull a shot. I want to see 2-3 consecutive charge weights with very little vertical stringing hear (ideally a 4-6 shot cluster) and hope the chrono agrees with the paper that there is a velocity flat spot hear. However if using an optical chrono I trust the paper over the chrono.

Then I would load 3-5 with the once fired brass to verify I have a good group and low ES at this charge.

If things verify alright I would tweak seating depth to see if groups tighten by going 2 .003 steps in each direction. Say. 020 off shot the best in your initial test I would load at .014, .017, .020, .023, .026 off. 3 of each using your once or twice fired brass. Whichever one of these shoots best is my load and probably as dialed as I'm able to get it.

This is my load for this rifle but keep in mind you may have to tweak it once there is 100-150 rounds through the barrel. You can shoot another ladder test to find the node again or just tweak your charge to find the same velocity you had before the barrel sped up.

Also at this point I would load up 5 at the load you just found in the virgin brass and see how it shoots against the fire formed brass. Chances are it'll shoot great, but for some reason it don't seem to work the other way around (using virgin brass to find a load then use it in fired brass).

Good luck.

 

[Danny1788]

Hear is how I would go about it and my theories.

I would prep and size 30 cases, I'm going to use these 30 cases for my load development. Most likely in sizing your just touching and uniforming the necks. Then chamfer, debur and uniform primer pocket.

Then I would pick a lower charge weight of the powder you have chosen and do a seating depth test. Load 5 rounds starting at touching lands and back off in .020 increments to .080 off lands (touching lands, .020 off, .040 off ect). Pick the depth that shot best and load up 5 more at that same depth and charge and verify it shoots decent or as good as the first time.

The theory is your seating depth sweet spot should remain constant throughout besides a few thous tweak hear or there later on.

I would chrono these shots to see what my ES is hear, if it's poor I would switch powder or primer and start again. If your powder primer combo is good ES should be decent at any charge, it won't go from bad to good by finding a node but if it's good to start with it will get better once in a node.

Next take these 30 once fired cases and load however many up for a ladder test to find your powder node. I like to load 2 in .3 or .5 gr increments to 1.5 grains over book max. Of course look carefully for pressure signs and stop shooting once you see them. I shoot at the same spot for every shot at 350 yrds and mark every shot. I like to do 2 shots of each charge to rule out something being a fluke or if I pull a shot. I want to see 2-3 consecutive charge weights with very little vertical stringing hear (ideally a 4-6 shot cluster) and hope the chrono agrees with the paper that there is a velocity flat spot hear. However if using an optical chrono I trust the paper over the chrono.

Then I would load 3-5 with the once fired brass to verify I have a good group and low ES at this charge.

If things verify alright I would tweak seating depth to see if groups tighten by going 2 .003 steps in each direction. Say. 020 off shot the best in your initial test I would load at .014, .017, .020, .023, .026 off. 3 of each using your once or twice fired brass. Whichever one of these shoots best is my load and probably as dialed as I'm able to get it.

This is my load for this rifle but keep in mind you may have to tweak it once there is 100-150 rounds through the barrel. You can shoot another ladder test to find the node again or just tweak your charge to find the same velocity you had before the barrel sped up.

Also at this point I would load up 5 at the load you just found in the virgin brass and see how it shoots against the fire formed brass. Chances are it'll shoot great, but for some reason it don't seem to work the other way around (using virgin brass to find a load then use it in fired brass).

Good luck.

This is good advice and pretty much spot on how I start load development in my rifles.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I usually start with a couple hundred rounds of weight sorted, neck turned, flash hole and primer pocket reamed brass. I've never had it take more than 50 rounds to work up a load on a gun I've built, if it's going to shoot, and typically it's 20 or less if it's a caliber I've done in the past. I shoot and hunt with the rest of the virgin brass and check the load again once I'm working with once fired brass.

Guns built right like to shoot out of the gate. I don't know how many barrels I've chambered that have shot in the .2's in the first 10 rounds through them, it's a lot. I can usually tell in under 20 rounds if it will be a waste of time and ammo to look for a load on a finicky/bad barrel. I don't break in barrels either. I load about 12 rounds up and go shoot it, clean it, and shoot it 12 or so more after that. Usually it takes 2-3 to get it fairly dialed and have the barrel fouled. I've taken the same load from another rifle, chambered with the same reamer, and shot in the .2's for 3 shot in under 5 rounds numerous times. I clean it one more time after that and run 50+ rounds through it before cleaning it again.

That is why I prefer custom barreled guns to factory guns. That kind of load development and accuracy is extremely rare with a factory gun. I haven't shot a factory barreled centerfire rifle in probably 10 years but I did buy a couple Remington to take prairie dog hunting this year. They better shoot decent or there will be new barrels and a reamer on the way. I might even come to my senses and put good barrels on them before I even shoot them.

 

[Rflamm250]

I have run into alot of trouble doing load development with virgin brass. Now I always fire form virgin brass before even starting.

 

[lancetkenyon]

I have similar experiences as IdahoCTD.
I have done load development for 50+ rifles with new virgin brass. Only once or twice have I had to change anything with the second firing. If anything, it is just reducing powder charge a bit once the barrel breaks in and speeds up after 100 or so rounds to get it back in the node, but even then, I try to work in the lower portion of node so it should stay there when it speeds up.

 

[YZEATER]

I've always only bought full length sizing dies because my guns have been hunting guns. I already got a set for this one. Should I get a set of neck size only?

 

[gohring3006]

I've always only bought full length sizing dies because my guns have been hunting guns. I already got a set for this one. Should I get a set of neck size only?

You can set up your full length die, to neck size. It stretches the case some, and they become hard to chamber. But I keep my bolt lugs lubed and try and help it chamber. But that's a whole other discussion. That's what I would do instead of buying another die.

 

[Lonewolf74]

I've always only bought full length sizing dies because my guns have been hunting guns. I already got a set for this one. Should I get a set of neck size only?

Not sure if your referring to my post but I did actually mean with full length dies. Usually on virgin brass the die does not touch or size much of anything except the neck and this is what I meant. Not that you should only touch the neck or neck size, personally I would stick with full length sizing but nothing wrong with either method.

 

[YZEATER]

Lonewolf74 - .just in general. My buddy only uses neck dies and I've always used full length. Since Im trying new things with this one I'd thought I'd change it too if it's necessary.