Squared and Trued 700 VS Blueprinted

Some of the tolerances you guys are quoting are huge .002-.005 is not close work at all! I ground stuff all the time that was plus .0002 minus .0000 Straight and parallel
and concentric with in .0001. Test stands and indicators don't lie. We could lap them closer than .0001 if needed.
No wonder bolts rattle!

Hmmm. I think you need to build a rifle or six.

You sound like a machinist or an engineer, but clearly not a precision Smith. (I am all three so I know the difference... All three of me are anal!..... .LMAO!) First off, it isn't tolerance, its clearance. However, you use the word tolerance to mean clearance when you say "no wonder bolts rattle" so I'm not totally sure you understand the difference even though you say you have ground parts in your past.

Nobody in their right mind would try to build a rifle with zero to 0.0002 clearance in the bolt raceway (let alone the +0.0002 indicated in your note). It would bind every day all day long. The first time the temperature changed, it would get frozen solid never to be budged again. With the stainless/CMoly metallurgy of actions and bolts used today, even the very best grease couldn't stop it from welding itself together from interlayer molecular bonding - probably over the course of just one night.

My own objectives are 2-3 thou CLEARANCE for target rifles, and 4 to 6 for field rifles. Sure, you can build a field rifle with target clearance, but then you risk jamming with dirt, moisture, or temp changes.

To put this in plain ugly English words, if it doesn't "rattle" a teeny tiny little bit, then I wouldn't want to go hunting with it!

Hope that helps explain the matter for you and others reading this.
 
Some of the tolerances you guys are quoting are huge .002-.005 is not close work at all! I ground stuff all the time that was plus .0002 minus .0000 Straight and parallel
and concentric with in .0001. Test stands and indicators don't lie. We could lap them closer than .0001 if needed.
No wonder bolts rattle!


(Quote) i doubt anyone has a blue print from rem of the 700 receiver.
so "blueprinting " is an idea not a fact.
my guess is the bp is a loose tolerance production print, not a tight tolerance bench rest print, so it would be silly to follow the print for a competition/precision fire arm.



Certain areas have to have a certain amount of clearance to operate under most conditions. If you had a bolt to action clearance of .0001 or .0002 the bolt would bind or not work at all because of the uneven forces applied by the bolt handle or even foreign objects like dust. These clearances are specific to the bolt to action only, Other clearances will vary depending on the use/need. These clearances are for slow speed operation and don't require extremely close clearances. Tighter does not mean better in many cases.

Chambers on the other hand have very tight tolerances if match or long range accuracy is needed. For Semi Autos, more clearances are necessary in most areas to function properly.

The term blue printing can mean many different things depending on what you are blue printing. Using a drawing with all of the tolerances
helps to find the minimum and maximum clearances need but in reality help the smith make the decision what needs to be done.

Not being able to add material he has to decide if the matching or apposing parts can be machined for uniformity within the listed tolerances or they need to be replaced.

If everything can be machined to the center line of the bore and square within the excepted tolerances, then Blue printing has been a success.

As Edd said, There is a difference in clearance and tolerances, Tolerances are the minimum to maximum clearances needed to operate. Clearances are the actual dimension between the two parts when placed together.

J E CUSTOM
 
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Is it possible for the bushings to move?
I'm not a gunsmith but just a shooter.
How secure is the bushings once installed?
Old Rooster

They are as secure as the quality of the work the smith did to install them.

BUT I don't like them. They look ugly and are just a bandage. I MUCH prefer to install a one piece bolt from PTG.
 
As far as over sized bolts go , I normally get PT&G to send me a one piece bolt with a diameter of .703 and ream the action to .705 If the action cannot be cleaned up by removing up to .005 thousandths, I consider it bad and replace it.

I have seen one bushed bolt and did not like it. I am sure if done right it will work, but personalty I just don't like the looks and function/feel of it. plus the cost of this machining is more than the replacement 700 action. In fact, you can buy a brand new 700 action for less money than the work even though I recommend blue printing all actions, you are starting with a new action.

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=remington 700 action

J E CUSTOM
 
It looks pretty simple to me? All you need is a good chuck.. indicator .mics
and a basic understanding of Sq.and concentric? A action is what 4-500 bucks?
I built parts for GE that went into jet engines that cost millions. And hauled people..
You needed background clearance to even see their prints!
How do you check squareness of the bolt face in the restrained condition
When it's open with no load is not the same as closed and locked. I have some ideas.
Back to the old cordax machine!
I'm going to have to build one.. I know I can!
 
(Quote) There is a difference in clearance and tolerances, Tolerances are the minimum to maximum clearances needed to operate. Clearances are the actual dimension between the two parts when placed together. J E CUSTOM

JE, I don't think I could teach you much. I'm just using your reply as a teachable moment for others reading this. I feel a need to help with the terminology.

Actually, the word tolerance as used in part drawings isn't really limited to any of the things others have described here.

The engineering definition is basically "the permissible limit or limits of variation in a physical dimension; a measured value or physical property of a material, manufactured object, or system; or other measured values (such as temperature, humidity, etc.). As we use the term in gunsmithing, it usually means the permissible limits of a given dimension usually expressed as + or - a small amount (eg 0.7000 +0.0002/-0.0005).

Tolerances in our world are usually needed to make sure parts can be interchangeably assembled and still work properly. We need to be able to make sure that a bolt fits our assembled barreled action. In fact, in an ideal world, all bolts and actions of a given make would have interchangeable bolts because the tolerances would be specified such that all bolts would fit all actions and always result in acceptable headspace. In the real world this never happens except for the best custom actions (and even then is not good practice).

A good way of understanding the need for tolerances is to compare the Sammi standards for cartridges and chambers. The Sammi standard for cartridges specifies the maximum cartridge in such a way as to ensure that it will always fit inside the minimum Sammi chamber. It is important for hunters to know that they can buy a box of ammo off the shelf and know that it will fit in their rifle, and that's one of the main reason such standards exist.

In the world of precision smithing, we have fewer applications for tolerance because we are always striving for zero. For example, I always align barrels in my lathe aiming for zero axial concentricity or as close to zero as I can get. But I think many smith's are happy with a half thou or so, and I have seen many examples on line where some smith's don't even do a true axial alignment so lord knows what their tolerance really is.

As JE said, clearance is simply the space between two assembled parts. But beyond that, clearances can actually have tolerances (eg 0.0020 +0.0002/-0.0001), but tolerance can never have a clearance.

In bigger more complicated assemblies, tolerance stack up also becomes important since an assembly built of components all at their maximum tolerance can be significantly bigger than an assembly made with all minimum tolerance parts. Or worse yet, the end result can be that they stack up so badly that the final assembly can be assembled. Most assemblies will be built with parts all over the map. So the Tolerance stack up for all the parts is analysed and modified to ensure that the worst case can still be assembled and still works as intended. That's basically how tolerance came to be such an important quantity.

I suppose I could put together a complete paper on the subject, but it would take days to do it properly. The above ought to be plenty enough to help those here who are wondering what all the fuss about tolerance is all about!
 
It looks pretty simple to me? All you need is a good chuck.. indicator .mics
and a basic understanding of Sq.and concentric? A action is what 4-500 bucks?
I built parts for GE that went into jet engines that cost millions. And hauled people..
You needed background clearance to even see their prints!
How do you check squareness of the bolt face in the restrained condition
When it's open with no load is not the same as closed and locked. I have some ideas.
Back to the old cordax machine!
I'm going to have to build one.. I know I can!

I once gave a speech at a conference where the speaker before me was the VP of engineering at Pratt & Whitney. He compared automotive engineering to aerospace and talked about how lousy car engines are because they breakdown so frequently while his engines don't. He made one huge mistake - he spoke before me...... I simply pointed out that car engines cost a few hundred bucks and his cost many million. The auto industry COULD make engines every bit as reliable as the aerospace industry, but nobody could afford them.

Do me a favour and let me know how you made out when you are done making your action! We could get together and have a few good laughs over even more beers!
 
I don't drink..But I will. I'm thinking about honing not reaming and spray weld
and ground rather than shims. I'll bet you I can build it!
I need to go down to Buds and get something with an action to take apart and look over.
 
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I don't drink..But I will. I'm thinking about honing not reaming and spray weld
and ground rather than shims. I'll bet you I can build it!

I bet you can too. Note that I didn't say that you couldn't - only that you will learn a thing or three.

BTW, I don't drink either.

Lastly, some advice since this is after all a place where we are all supposed to have fun.

Honing isn't as good as reaming because most hones require that the original hole is straight. Since that isn't too likely, reaming will have a better result.

Spray welding will work, but most smith's don't have access to that kind of equipment, and you will still have to deal with precision centering the bolt for post weld machining on your lathe, and you will still have a bolt handle that is silver soldered to the bolt and bolt extraction cam timing that probably sucks, and (in the now famous words of Winston Churchill) in the morning, it will still be ugly. I MUCH prefer a one-piece PTG Bolt. Specify, order, and install six weeks later - all done.

Edit - I guess I should add (in your favor) that going the spray welded "Borden bump" way will allow you to have much tighter clearances, but I'd still stay well over 0.0002...... But go ahead and try that first...... ;)
 
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It looks pretty simple to me? All you need is a good chuck.. indicator .mics
and a basic understanding of Sq.and concentric? A action is what 4-500 bucks?


Time and experience is also important for a "Good" gunsmith to have.

New Stainless actions are less than $400.00 and the Chrome Molly Blues actions are just barely over $300.00. so if a person decided to go this route. he could have a new blue printed action for around $600.00

J E CUSTOM
 
At some point i want to try? there is quite a bit of overlap with stuff I have done a lot.
Chasing threads over wires is the same? and I have indicated bores with a ground plug.
Level and concentric. I don't expect it to be easy! Others have learned I can too.
 
So in a nut shell "blueprinting" is very similar to "match grade", they are subjective terms and it's best to ask the person selling the service what they actually do and what the specs actually are?
 
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