KillerBee
Well-Known Member
Agreed! I was talking rifles, not hand guns or bows!
Last edited:
Shootings biggest Misconception!!
- Thread starter Frank in the Laurels
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Agreed! I was talking rifles, not hand guns or bows!
Is this discussion about the capability of the rifle or the shooter? The OP said the misconception is "that any rifle/bullet 100 yard performance WILL determine it's long range capabilities". Then most of the comments are about the capability of the shooter.
I totally agree, it should be both and complimentary, that's why I commented as ...
lightbulbYep, and the biggest factor remains the NUT behind the trigger.
This reminds me ... in the early 1990s while stationed at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, I was at then Tucson Rod and Gun Club doing my final sight in before the hunting season begins.
I fired 3 each for 3 hunting rifles and packed it. While waiting for the range to be cleared safe so I can retrieve my targets, I was admiring the guy's set-up shooting next to me, IIRC it was a Blaser R8 (?) in .30-06 topped with S&B scope (don't remember the model); it was absolutely beautiful rig.
Had about 10 minutes left so I started to watch him instead, he was obviously having trouble as he keeps adjusting his scope and shaking his head. I looked through my spotting scope and he was all over the place.
I was surprised when he asked me if I wanted to shoot it but accepted without hesitation.
As I try to get comfortable to take the shoot, I noticed that he went through a couple of boxes of factory ammo already, which explains why he was anticipating the recoil each time he pulls the trigger. I fired 3 rounds and they were all within 1 MOA at 100 yards.The best advise I can give him at the time was to pack it and try another day, needless to say, that was the last time I saw him.
'Twas either the US Army or USMC rifle team that testing M14NM's in accuracy cradles, they shot smaller test groups in MOA at 600 yards than at 300 with the same ammo; not much, but easily seen. The Brit's proved a century ago that some barrels positively compensate for bullet velocity making long range groups smaller than those at shorter ranges; no wonder they shot better scores at long range than our M1903's with less .30-06 velocity spread than the .303 rounds:
https://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167
Tuners have been used for some time to tune the barrel's resonant and harmonic frequencies so it points at the best place to compensate for muzzle velocity spreads; higher angles for slower bullets, vice versa for faster ones leaving at a lower angle. Happens when barrel muzzle axis is on the up swing. One shown in the below link and there's others listed on Varmint Al's site:
Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.
All bullets don't leave at the same speed. Slower ones will drop further down range that faster ones. A 50 fps spread in .308 Win ammo shows a 1/10th MOA vertical spread at 100 yards; at 1000, it's 2 MOA. According to decent ballistic software.
All bullets leaving at the same speed do not have the same BC. As some bullets are more unbalanced than others, they'll have lower BC numbers than the others. That means more vertical stringing.
All bullets do not leave the muzzle at the same angle relative to the line of sight. Barrel times have a small spread even when they leave at the same speed. Pressure curves are not repeatable and vary a tiny bit. How much the barrel whips and the direction it whips at is determined by where the bore axis is aligned relative to the center of mass holding the rifle. The further away it is, the more it'll whip before the bullet leaves and that changes the angle it leaves at relative to the line of sight it was fired in. (This is the reason different people have different zeros for the same rifle and ammo.)
Benchrest records through 300 yards show each 100 yards past the first one have aggregate groups larger in MOA; about .2 at 100, .27 at 300 and .35 at 300.
Subtle atmospheric conditions that are not stable causes bullets to move around in flight even if they leave at the same speed at the same angle and all are perfectly balanced. The further down range the bullet is, the more a given air movement/density changes, so will that change its trajectory
Therefore. . .
'Tis my opinion that all groups down range increase in MOA sizes. No way does a bullet leaving at the same angle and direction form LOS at some point at the edge of a short range aerial group know what direction to change its path then head back towards center for a group further down range. Positive compensation for barrel whip excluded.
To me, 'twould be interesting to see muzzle velocity numbers for each shot in Brian's tests through 300 yards.
https://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167
Tuners have been used for some time to tune the barrel's resonant and harmonic frequencies so it points at the best place to compensate for muzzle velocity spreads; higher angles for slower bullets, vice versa for faster ones leaving at a lower angle. Happens when barrel muzzle axis is on the up swing. One shown in the below link and there's others listed on Varmint Al's site:
Barrel Tuner Analysis -- FEA Dynamic Analysis of Esten's Rifle with/without a Tuner.
All bullets don't leave at the same speed. Slower ones will drop further down range that faster ones. A 50 fps spread in .308 Win ammo shows a 1/10th MOA vertical spread at 100 yards; at 1000, it's 2 MOA. According to decent ballistic software.
All bullets leaving at the same speed do not have the same BC. As some bullets are more unbalanced than others, they'll have lower BC numbers than the others. That means more vertical stringing.
All bullets do not leave the muzzle at the same angle relative to the line of sight. Barrel times have a small spread even when they leave at the same speed. Pressure curves are not repeatable and vary a tiny bit. How much the barrel whips and the direction it whips at is determined by where the bore axis is aligned relative to the center of mass holding the rifle. The further away it is, the more it'll whip before the bullet leaves and that changes the angle it leaves at relative to the line of sight it was fired in. (This is the reason different people have different zeros for the same rifle and ammo.)
Benchrest records through 300 yards show each 100 yards past the first one have aggregate groups larger in MOA; about .2 at 100, .27 at 300 and .35 at 300.
Subtle atmospheric conditions that are not stable causes bullets to move around in flight even if they leave at the same speed at the same angle and all are perfectly balanced. The further down range the bullet is, the more a given air movement/density changes, so will that change its trajectory
Therefore. . .
'Tis my opinion that all groups down range increase in MOA sizes. No way does a bullet leaving at the same angle and direction form LOS at some point at the edge of a short range aerial group know what direction to change its path then head back towards center for a group further down range. Positive compensation for barrel whip excluded.
To me, 'twould be interesting to see muzzle velocity numbers for each shot in Brian's tests through 300 yards.
KillerBee
Well-Known Member
Question for you Frank.
You sound like an extremely knowledgeable shooter with a ton of experience. My question is: If you were to pick between a 7mm or a 300 Win Mag, which one would you choose for an up to a 1000 yard hunting rifle for both moose and elk and why? Thanks
You sound like an extremely knowledgeable shooter with a ton of experience. My question is: If you were to pick between a 7mm or a 300 Win Mag, which one would you choose for an up to a 1000 yard hunting rifle for both moose and elk and why? Thanks
KillerBee
Well-Known Member
That's funny man, hehe
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
depends on the toy and the time.... Neither my current 7stw or my new 300rum has even seen a target at 100 yards. They have been shot on paper locally at 200yds and at 550 out in the badlands. I need to find another spot to get past 1K or take a less desirable shot angle...
Bart has a heck of a point about the atmospherics... If the pill is in the air a second or three things like wind and bullet instability have time to act in the bullet.
Putting in the time to get a stable load that actually puts up consistently good grouping and not just an occasional bragging group is also important. Between that and the nut behind the trigger, I'm somewhat surprised that any critters get turned into sausage every hunting season... I guess the deer crossing signs might just be working.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI8UPHMzZm8
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
I totally agree, it should be both and complimentary, that's why I commented as ...
This reminds me ... in the early 1990s while stationed at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, I was at then Tucson Rod and Gun Club doing my final sight in before the hunting season begins.
I fired 3 each for 3 hunting rifles and packed it. While waiting for the range to be cleared safe so I can retrieve my targets, I was admiring the guy's set-up shooting next to me, IIRC it was a Blaser R8 (?) in .30-06 topped with S&B scope (don't remember the model); it was absolutely beautiful rig.
Had about 10 minutes left so I started to watch him instead, he was obviously having trouble as he keeps adjusting his scope and shaking his head. I looked through my spotting scope and he was all over the place.
I was surprised when he asked me if I wanted to shoot it but accepted without hesitation.
The best advise I can give him at the time was to pack it and try another day, needless to say, that was the last time I saw him.
Ed:
Lets chalk that up as the second biggest misconception.... Anticipation of recoil and how it adversely impacts accuracy and shot placement negatively....
I had that exact issue with my Smith and Wesson 44 long barreled revolver sending full house 240 grain hollowpoints (Sierra Sportsmasters) with 22 grains of Lil'Gun. That is one helluva a hard recoiling animal. (I did something I don't do, gave a working load out...)
It's a great deer round up here bit it took some serious discipline on my part to overcome the 'fear and anticipation of recoil' to actually attain some respectable groups. We all can't be Clint Eastwood after all.
One of my hunt buddies wife wanted to shoot my 338 Lapua (it's braked of course) but she had a preconceived notion that it would recoil hard and her first 3 shots were indicative of thar preconceived notion. Once she settled down (and realized that it wasn't a man (woman) killer, she started shooting respectable groups.
In my view, that is the second misconception... Anticipation of recoil and how it adversely impacts accuracy....
SidecarFlip
Well-Known Member
Whatever Brian says is kosher with me. He is my neighbor up north after all. he just don't know it......
