Scope Not Level With My Action

[barrelnut50]

Incorrect, the horizontal poi shift is 0.44" at all ranges - it's not an angular error, it's fixed. The reticle is plumb so the turret adjustments are purely vertical and the bullet drop is vertical so they are parallel but offset 0.44", always.

You are correct IF the shooter maintains the 0.44" POI offset when the rifle is "zeroed" at 100 yds. But someone would do that only if they knew that a .44" error existed at the muzzle. Usually they don't know that and proceed to zero the rifle with zero POI offset. Then they convert the .44" POI shift into a .44 IPHY angular error.

 

[ajkellerusmc]

I have always done it a different way. Drive a 1x2 painted white into the ground 100 yds away and get it perfectly vertical using a high quality level that you have verified is accurate. Then get the gun in your rifle vise and level the action with your action level again one that is accurate and not from dollar general. Then rotate your scope in the rings to the vertical 1x2 down range and start the snug up process keeping the scope from rolling off vertical. Seems to work for me but is it 100% Im not sure! I have rechecked guns years later and they are still on vertical.

 

[gilk1]

True. My example was an exaggeration to show that reticle cant is more of a problem. The human eye is capable of getting the reticle aligned to within 1-2deg. A few degrees is less adjustment than 1 click so it ends up being irrelevant. Just throw the scope on and eyeball the reticle alignment.

 

[Rudolph Ferdinand]

Wondering if anyone has run into this. I mount my scope and use one of those small levels that fits in the action and then sit a bubble level on the turret of my NXS. I get it so the bubbles match perfect. After shooting it at distance I can tell it's canted. I do a ladder test and confirm it's off.
So I get the gun set up and verify the action is perfectly level. I hang a plumb bob 80 yards away and sure enough its canted at about 11:57. With the bubble on the turret the bubble is touching the line while it's perfectly centered on the action. I checked both bubble levels on two quality levels I use for construction and both were on. I should've gone to the plumb bob to begin with. Is it unusual for a turret on a quality scope to not match the action.

I used one 8/10 years ago and I determined that it was not any good. Wheeler Engineering has a better device. Most people use the bubble level on top of the turret not a good place to determine if the scope is level. I made a level out of a piece of metal and glued the level to it. I saw a guy who had one made for him, and there is a company that now makes them...a better way to level your scope.

 

[ntsqd]

I use the same system. I use picatinny rails on all my rifles. I also have a set of rings for each scope (I use Badger Rings). I make sure that the scope is plumb in the rings by using Badger Ordnance Dead Level Reticle Leveling tool

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1008828942?pid=336934

I also mount my level on my picatinny rail. Once I know that the scope reticle is level and it is mounted to the rail, and then the rail is level, I am good to go.

I never remove the rings from my scopes once they are set.

I built a tool very much like that for a whole lot less than that. Bought a long section of pictinney rail and bolted it to a piece of aluminum plate and added a circular bubble level using some VHB, all but the rail from mcmaster.com. The top of the rail is level to the plate within what my digital level can indicate. The plate has three M6 holes tapped in it with simple hex head bolts to level the plate.

The shop that I worked in had a very simple tool for aligning the reticles. It was a piece of acrylic cast in an 'L' shape and it had a rib in the vertical face. The horizontal face sat on the bolt raceway and we twisted the scope to align the vertical segments of the reticle with the rib. I'm thinking to make one for myself.

Old Weaver rings that hooked on one side and had two screws on the other were the worst for rotating the scope when the screws were tightened. I came to hate whenever we sold them to a cheapskate. I'd have banned them from the shop if it had been my decision.

 

[barrelnut50]

True. My example was an exaggeration to show that reticle cant is more of a problem. The human eye is capable of getting the reticle aligned to within 1-2deg. A few degrees is less adjustment than 1 click so it ends up being irrelevant. Just throw the scope on and eyeball the reticle alignment.

I agree that cant error is worse, and that your scenario was exaggerated.

I've tried to eye-ball reticle alignment many times. I can't see the bore through the receiver because I'm looking at the reticle. I'm looking at the rear end of the receiver and guessing that the bore is centered in that perspective at the front end. I can't keep my head erect because the stock is in the way of my shoulder, so my frame of reference is tilted. Whenever I used this method I honestly couldn't say what my reticle alignment error was. Your eyes must be better than mine.

Now I use a tool to help me accurately align the scope reticle to the rifle bore. I use the same tool to align the anti-cant indicator to the scope turret/reticle and plumb targets at the range. Scope and anti-cant indicator alignment is near-perfect every time.

https://www.highpoweroptics.com/ringtrue™-reticle-alignment-tool-p-30656.html

 

[Greyfox]

How far away is the plum line from the scope or does it not mater?

Great thread! Am fighting this very issue on my Savages.
Aligning the reticle with the plumb line on the wall and then using tape to hold it while tightening certainly would seem to make sense.
Can you elaborate on how you position the light to project the reticle? If the light is not aligned with the centerline of the scope, doesn't it project the reticle at an angle?
Thanks!

The distance to the wall/plum line is generally 3-5Ft. I use a fairly bright LED flashlight. You can use the power ring and focus....f necessary to sharpen and size the image, which will project upside down. I align my rifle at a 90 degree angle by eye and have had no issues with alignment/results. Positioning the flashlight properly is important, and holding it in place with some masking take helps, as does making sure the room is dark enough to view the image.

 

[gilk1]

I agree that cant error is worse, and that your scenario was exaggerated.

I've tried to eye-ball reticle alignment many times. I can't see the bore through the receiver because I'm looking at the reticle. I'm looking at the rear end of the receiver and guessing that the bore is centered in that perspective at the front end. I can't keep my head erect because the stock is in the way of my shoulder, so my frame of reference is tilted. Whenever I used this method I honestly couldn't say what my reticle alignment error was. Your eyes must be better than mine.

Now I use a tool to help me accurately align the scope reticle to the rifle bore. I use the same tool to align the anti-cant indicator to the scope turret/reticle and plumb targets at the range. Scope and anti-cant indicator alignment is near-perfect every time.

https://www.highpoweroptics.com/ringtrue™-reticle-alignment-tool-p-30656.html

I usually set the scope on a low-med power get behind the gun far enough to make out the reticle and see the top of the round action or scope rail and square it up as best I can.

The important part is adding a permanent scope bubble level and shooting a tall target test. I use string with a weight (heavy bolt or rock) tied on the end as a plumb bob. I first set the scope level by using the plumb line beside the reticle and then shoot a tall target test. I Usually get close enough that I don't have to adjust the bubble level after this but if I do I'll reshoot the tall target until both poi's are along the plumb line.

This is a great time to calibrate the clicks on your scope too. Don't waste ammo!

 

[Just an Old Cowboy]

Yes it is a very common problem!
I build custom rifles for a living, and find that leveling the action and mounting the rings, then setting the crosshairs to a string with a plumbob is the only way to be perfectly sure that the scope is truly mounted correctly. I also install the scope level at this point as well to insure that all points are in a correct reference.

 

[ATH]

I level the rifle, lock that down, then level the reticle using the vertical against the corner of my neighbor's house a hundred yards away. Then I tighten the rings and make sure that is right. Then if I'm using a scope level, I get that level when the reticle matches the house. That way in the future, if the bubble level reads correctly, the scope and rifle are level.

 

[huntsman22]

reticle tru.....hint

https://parabola-llc.com/

 

[Don A Parsons]

As above...

Get your rifle planted level,,,
line it up with a """straight wall"""
crank optic down,,,
place cross hairs on the edge,,,
now crank it up,,,
once the cross hairs reach the top they should still be in-line with edge of the wall.

Test with live ammo,,, use level to square up the target...

Zero at bulls-eye,,, 15 clicks L,,, 15 clicks up,,, shoot.
Crank 30 clicks R,,, shoot.
30 clicks down,,, shoot.
30 clicks L,,, shoot.
15 clicks up,,, 15 clicks R,,, the cross-hairs should be back at bulls-eye...

If the box is not square & level,,, the optic needs a small turn.

Return to the wall to confirm...

Life is just that simple.

 

[feedjake11]

reticle tru.....hint

https://parabola-llc.com/

That is awesome. Thank you! Sooo much crap out there I've never bought any of it. I just used a door or whatever straight edge or line was handy. I've finally found the real deal and will be ordering.

 

[Naymola]

This subject has mystified me for many years regarding exact alignment of the action to the reticle.
So with our hunting rifles, we get the reticle aligned with the action and we have a anti-cant bubble on the scope and all is lined up- perfectly. Close your eyes and shoulder the gun, with a nice firm grip and a cheek weld. When you open your eyes, I'd bet it's canted. For years I simply, align a anti cant bubble with the vertical cross hair and then shoulder the gun several times where it feels natural to me, aiming at a door jam, window frame,etc across the street from my house and adjust till the bubble is consistently level after shouldering it. Why such a emphasis for the action being level? For sure if we are shooting bench rest with stocks with wide forearms designed to fit a specific shooting rest, where the stock and reticle are aligned, not the action. The rifle doesn't care if it's canted, straight up, sideways. What matters is a consistent position each time it's fired, the anti-cant device assures a consistent position.