Same Make/Model Question

[laweidauer]

Hey everyone, thank you for your responses to my question. We have been out and started doing some load development and I guess that I won the lottery because I have a load shooting sub moa at 100 yards already and my friend has not been so lucky. His are closer to 1.5-2 moa at best so I feel like I have kind of answered my own question in a way. It is shocking to me that two seemingly identical rifles would shoot so differently but reading the responses here and floating around the forum makes me realize that I shouldn't be as surprised. As for the load that I am at right now, I am loading Berger 115 grain VLDs in 25-06 seated .02 off the lands (stoney point gauge method). I started really low, but the gun has gotten better as I have progressively pushed it harder and harder. I am currently at 60.5 grains of Retumbo which is the max load listed for the round. I am not getting any pressure signs and wish I could push it harder, but I am already dealing with a compressed load or close to it so I am stuck as far as that goes. I am using standard CCI large rifle primers. I really think that the rifle can do better and I know I can shoot better but I am happy with where I am at for starters. The main thing I wish I would have done earlier is followed the advice I got on here and found an accuracy node for distance from the lands before working with powder. I feel like it will be unsafe for me to simply start seating the bullets deeper without backing off on charges first so I guess it's back to the drawing board. For the purposes of chasing South Dakota whitetails this weekend I think 1 MOA will be just fine but I always want better. I am open to any suggestions you have to tweak additional accuracy out of this rifle/load combo and thanks again for all the responses so far.

 

[barefooter56]

Hey everyone, thank you for your responses to my question. We have been out and started doing some load development and I guess that I won the lottery because I have a load shooting sub moa at 100 yards already and my friend has not been so lucky. His are closer to 1.5-2 moa at best so I feel like I have kind of answered my own question in a way. It is shocking to me that two seemingly identical rifles would shoot so differently but reading the responses here and floating around the forum makes me realize that I shouldn't be as surprised. As for the load that I am at right now, I am loading Berger 115 grain VLDs in 25-06 seated .02 off the lands (stoney point gauge method). I started really low, but the gun has gotten better as I have progressively pushed it harder and harder. I am currently at 60.5 grains of Retumbo which is the max load listed for the round. I am not getting any pressure signs and wish I could push it harder, but I am already dealing with a compressed load or close to it so I am stuck as far as that goes. I am using standard CCI large rifle primers. I really think that the rifle can do better and I know I can shoot better but I am happy with where I am at for starters. The main thing I wish I would have done earlier is followed the advice I got on here and found an accuracy node for distance from the lands before working with powder. I feel like it will be unsafe for me to simply start seating the bullets deeper without backing off on charges first so I guess it's back to the drawing board. For the purposes of chasing South Dakota whitetails this weekend I think 1 MOA will be just fine but I always want better. I am open to any suggestions you have to tweak additional accuracy out of this rifle/load combo and thanks again for all the responses so far.

laweidauer,
Great! Once you get the load to a MOA to 1/2 MOA the biggest gains in accuracy can be had by working on your conditions (wind ETC) reading skills ,trigger control and position. Good luck this weekend!

 

[Bart B]

Phil,

No difference in loads. Same lot of Sierra 190's seated over 44 grains of IMR4320 in new M118 match cases with original primers. Both barrels new in their respective 7.62 NATO Garands. Sighted them both in the same afternoon to get sight dope on both. Both shot under 2/3 MOA at 300, about one MOA at 1000 with 20-shot test groups.

 

[barefooter56]

Phil,

No difference in loads. Same lot of Sierra 190's seated over 44 grains of IMR4320 in new M118 match cases with original primers. Both barrels new in their respective 7.62 NATO Garands. Sighted them both in the same afternoon to get sight dope on both. Both shot under 2/3 MOA at 300, about one MOA at 1000 with 20-shot test groups.

Some guys have all the luck . lol ! Since they were 7.62 NATO were they both chambered by the same guy at the same time he re barreled them? 1 MOA at 1000 with a Garand is good shooting! And the rifles were put together by someone who knew what he was doing! Who did the work if I may ask?

 

[Bart B]

Phil,

Both barrels were made at Springfield Armory (in MA) on machines used for Garand barrels. Both were broach rifled an chambered with the same tools used for M14 barrels.

The USN Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego got several hundred of them to convert 30 caliber Garands. All were air gauged and those with groove diameters under .3079" and uniform to .0001" were set aside for match rifles; the rest for service rifles used by the recruit training command. Both those I had were marked "78" on their muzzles indicating they had .3078" groove diameters. A 15/16th inch pin gauge went in one's chamber about 1/4" less than the other; indicating to me that chamber was a couple thousandths smaller in diameter than the other. All finished rifles were tested at 300 yards from an accuracy cradle and had to shoot 3" average of three 8-shot test groups with a good lot of M118 match ammo to be a Grade A rifle for the USN team. There were two riflesmiths at the unit making them; sometimes three. All they did was drill out the barrel gas port a little then put the parts together that fit right.

Both rifles were zeroed at 300 yards slung up in prone resting on rice and BB filled shot bags; one under my front hand and the other under the stock toe. A small aperture front sight was used along with a custom .040" aperture in the rear NM sight; this allowed the smallest aiming error. (I earlier had taped a 20X Lyman Targetspot to an M1 without sights then went into this position; the reticule wiggled around in about a 1" area on the 1000 yard target.) Two sighters and 20 test shots for their groups were then fired single loaded; about 30 seconds apart. Then taken to the 1000-yard line where the 2 + 20 firing test was repeated.

300 yard groups were a bit over 3 inches extreme spread. At 1000, about 15 inches. Same come up of about 23 clicks on the elevation knob from a 600 yard zero to that for 1000, Knowing that even the best marksmen shooting Garands with their 4.5 pound trigger and not 100% repeatable shouldering, it was well known that their best groups on target would be about 1/2 MOA or so bigger than how they were tested from an accuracy cradle. Half a minute less than 1.5 is 1; so 'twas my opinion that both rifles. That load I mentioned was the most accurate one used at long range in those M1's and sometimes shot better scores than the high bolt gun scores in matches.

That bullet leaving as such has about 20" more drop at 1000 with 50 fps lower muzzle velocity.

 

[barefooter56]

Phil,

Both barrels were made at Springfield Armory (in MA) on machines used for Garand barrels. Both were broach rifled an chambered with the same tools used for M14 barrels.

The USN Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego got several hundred of them to convert 30 caliber Garands. All were air gauged and those with groove diameters under .3079" and uniform to .0001" were set aside for match rifles; the rest for service rifles used by the recruit training command. Both those I had were marked "78" on their muzzles indicating they had .3078" groove diameters. A 15/16th inch pin gauge went in one's chamber about 1/4" less than the other; indicating to me that chamber was a couple thousandths smaller in diameter than the other. All finished rifles were tested at 300 yards from an accuracy cradle and had to shoot 3" average of three 8-shot test groups with a good lot of M118 match ammo to be a Grade A rifle for the USN team. There were two riflesmiths at the unit making them; sometimes three. All they did was drill out the barrel gas port a little then put the parts together that fit right.

Both rifles were zeroed at 300 yards slung up in prone resting on rice and BB filled shot bags; one under my front hand and the other under the stock toe. A small aperture front sight was used along with a custom .040" aperture in the rear NM sight; this allowed the smallest aiming error. (I earlier had taped a 20X Lyman Targetspot to an M1 without sights then went into this position; the reticule wiggled around in about a 1" area on the 1000 yard target.) Two sighters and 20 test shots for their groups were then fired single loaded; about 30 seconds apart. Then taken to the 1000-yard line where the 2 + 20 firing test was repeated.

300 yard groups were a bit over 3 inches extreme spread. At 1000, about 15 inches. Same come up of about 23 clicks on the elevation knob from a 600 yard zero to that for 1000, Knowing that even the best marksmen shooting Garands with their 4.5 pound trigger and not 100% repeatable shouldering, it was well known that their best groups on target would be about 1/2 MOA or so bigger than how they were tested from an accuracy cradle. Half a minute less than 1.5 is 1; so 'twas my opinion that both rifles. That load I mentioned was the most accurate one used at long range in those M1's and sometimes shot better scores than the high bolt gun scores in matches.

That bullet leaving as such has about 20" more drop at 1000 with 50 fps lower muzzle velocity.

Nice! My Garand is till a bone stock .30-06. One of the early BLUE SKY imports in the 80s but the barrel is brand new. ( pure luck). Had to get all the old cosmoline off her and had Mike Gingher who was a Marine Corps team armorer check her out and fix the rear sight from dropping under recoil. Shoots about 2 inch at 100 yards with factory Federal American Eagle ammo. Have a plan to test our 150 grain flat base at 100 and our 168 grain CLASSIC HUNTER 100-300 yards and our 155 gr Target Hybrids just to see what we are capable of. Should be fun!

 

[TOM H]

Phil,

I partially agree with your remarks on chamber dimensions.

I disagree with your group size statement even if each rifle had its load tuned to its best accuracy. Even then, there will be differences in few-shot group sizes in the 2X to 4X range (sometimes more) with the rifle fired in free recoil without any human intervention whatsoever. Biggest groups happen when all the ammo and rifle variables add up in all directions. Smallest groups when variables are at their minimum but pretty much cancel each other out. People shooting rail guns indoors where the atmosphere is very consistent see that happen with loads tuned to perfection. I've seen 10-shot 30 caliber 100-yard test targets from them ranging from sub 1/10th MOA to 3/10ths MOA. That's what the record 100-yard benchrest agg's are shooting loads tuned for best accuracy have done with several 5-shot and 10-shot groups. Groups with 5 or less shots typically have a greater spread in size than those with more shots.

Bart you might want to read this

Litz Dominates His First-Ever F-TR Match with Pierce-Built Rifle « Daily Bulletin

 

[MudRunner2005]

Bart you might want to read this

Litz Dominates His First-Ever F-TR Match with Pierce-Built Rifle « Daily Bulletin

Congrats Bryan!

I've been shooting the 210 VLD's behind Varget in Lapua brass for several years out of my .308 5R Milspec with the 24" 11.25" twist barrel. And several others here have also had great success shooting the 210 & 215 Bergers in the .308 Win. with a few differences in the loads of course. But just knowing that those of us who have had great success with the heavy bullets in the .308 Win were actually on to something that has now been proven in a 1K comp, is very satisfying. Especially since a lot of folks were questioning the accuracy at those distances from external forces (wind, gravity, etc...), because of how slow the average MV is.

 

[Bart B]

David Tubb shot Sierra 250-gr. HPMKs from his .308 Win Palma rifle with great success. Leaving at 2150 fps from a 1:8 twist barrel, he told me they held a 5" vertical spread at 1000 in his tests. That was back in the 1980's, so such performance with the heavies in a .308 Win. is not anything new.

Ne're the less, good to see someone shooting heavies in .308's as it's not a well known fact.

 

[TOM H]

David Tubb shot Sierra 250-gr. HPMKs from his .308 Win Palma rifle with great success. Leaving at 2150 fps from a 1:8 twist barrel, he told me they held a 5" vertical spread at 1000 in his tests. That was back in the 1980's, so such performance with the heavies in a .308 Win. is not anything new.

Ne're the less, good to see someone shooting heavies in .308's as it's not a well known fact.

David Tubbs was member of your Palma team and he out shot you and it's real funny but he never mention your name on any of his article. I guess that's what happen when you bad mouth former team members.

 

[Bart B]

Tom, you're showing off your ignorance again. He's never mentioned most of them in any of his articles.

Your comment's normal for ignoratiolinguistic people; you may be one. You have no idea what David did that really bothered everyone on that team; it had nothing to do with shooting.

 

[laweidauer]

Hey guys, I know this thread has kind of gone off topic, but I wanted to post a final update on the most important part of load development...performance on animals. I was fortunate enough to take the largest buck of my life this weekend. He was a 5x6 with a gross green score of 164 1/2. The bullet worked masterfully and the deer was on the ground without even twitching as soon as I pulled the trigger. That was at 185 yards so nothing spectacular. The doe that was with him ran out and stopped at 381 and since I had 1.5 days to hunt I decided to fill my anterless tag as well. I dialed up and she dropped right where she stood as well. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I can't wait to utilize some of your suggestions to see if I can tweak out a little more precision, but for today I am pleased with how it went.

 

[barefooter56]

Hey guys, I know this thread has kind of gone off topic, but I wanted to post a final update on the most important part of load development...performance on animals. I was fortunate enough to take the largest buck of my life this weekend. He was a 5x6 with a gross green score of 164 1/2. The bullet worked masterfully and the deer was on the ground without even twitching as soon as I pulled the trigger. That was at 185 yards so nothing spectacular. The doe that was with him ran out and stopped at 381 and since I had 1.5 days to hunt I decided to fill my anterless tag as well. I dialed up and she dropped right where she stood as well. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I can't wait to utilize some of your suggestions to see if I can tweak out a little more precision, but for today I am pleased with how it went.

laweidauer,
Great! If you want. Please go to our website and post any pictures with a short story of your success.
Congratulations!!!