WildRose
Well-Known Member
The hardness testing doesn't seem to indicate that it is.
Best results were achieved with 9-11 seconds according to everything I can find on the subject.
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Best results were achieved with 9-11 seconds according to everything I can find on the subject.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Since heating is not instantaneous and with the goal being to reduce the hardness to under 100 for best results it seems time would be an important factor.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
You do realize the temperature of the flame on the AMP is much higher than the 500-600c temps the salt bath is capable of don't you? Hence the flame heats up the brass far quicker.
The Amp annealer has different time/speed settings based on case size so there's no single answer to your question.
I can melt solid brass rod with a torch in as little as about 3 seconds depending on how hot I set my flame and the size rod I'm using for brazing.
testing annealing brass - Search Videos
at 30:46 he uses a tester . that was interesting the tool he used is a Webster Hardness Tester
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Mikecr
Well-Known Member
That's reasonable. I've been dip annealing for 47yrs, and have never needed to 'time' a dip.
I just take my time, and given that my temperature is right, I really can't get it wrong. For a shoulder level dip, I probably take ~15sec, for a mid-body dip, ~20-30sec.
Now if you wanted to full anneal, then temperatures and timings are all different. AMP is right about that, it's nothing new.
But that has never been what I want with cartridge brass.
If I was forming something like a 17BMG, then I would just pull out a torch and full anneal before hitting BMG cases with all that work.
Just the same as Lapua heating their brass with torches while fully forming new cases from ingots.
How many of us ever need that?
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WildRose
Well-Known Member
They last thing I'd want is for my cases to soften at the head end. I can't see anything coming from that other than serious problems.
Just curious have you ever sent out any of your non annealed brass and annealed brass for hardness testing ?
I can't see anything good being gained myself by annealing much below the shoulder/body junction.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
When I'm improving cases (with a wildcat), I'm usually reducing body taper and increasing shoulder angle.
Sometimes I'm moving the shoulder and neck back.
So before applying a lot of energy and 1st fire forming, I do a deep dip.
And as suggested, I'm not full annealing. Just taking cases to a good working standard.
No splits or failures, and I don't have to re-work harden the brass.
Hardness in itself is not a sole indicator of brass elasticity in hoop form.
Currently, nobody has a test that truly applies for us.
But you can see when your brass has lost it's life, it's spring back, you went too far. And you can see when it's springing back too much for your sizing plan. Time to reset it.
That's our standard.
Sometimes I'm moving the shoulder and neck back.
So before applying a lot of energy and 1st fire forming, I do a deep dip.
And as suggested, I'm not full annealing. Just taking cases to a good working standard.
No splits or failures, and I don't have to re-work harden the brass.
Hardness in itself is not a sole indicator of brass elasticity in hoop form.
Currently, nobody has a test that truly applies for us.
But you can see when your brass has lost it's life, it's spring back, you went too far. And you can see when it's springing back too much for your sizing plan. Time to reset it.
That's our standard.
Annealing Temperatures For Reloading Brass Cartridge Cases
G. Chambers, Ballistic Recreations Introduction Although the metallurgy of brass has been extensively studied and understanding is quite advanced at the academic and industrial levels, technical kn…
ballisticrecreations.ca
i liked the conclusions at the end of the page
what would that tester look like ? there is the webster hardness tester
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
It's not a test for hardness alone. It would be a test for needed elasticity that you can manage consistently.
What's right -vs- wrong would come down to the cartridge dimensions and brass thickness and alloy content and what suits your sizing plan.
Ideally your brass would consistently spring back from sizing to same dimension, and with same force (for neck tension).
That's not reaching for an extreme one way or another. It's managing needed balance.
QuietTexan
Well-Known Member
They're being critical in the sense that the exact kind of annealing Mike is looking for isn't what they're looking for. To be honest, the candor in AMPs article saying flame annealing works and is their preferred option to me indicates they're not criticizing salt bath just out of hand to push product, they really do have data to show it doesn't do what they want it to do. Basically two different goals being met, but they think their goal is the correct one.
3 seconds or less? I'll run through 100 in as fast as I can put them in and take them out, but that's the biggest batch of brass I'm likely to ever do.
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Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Nothing happens with brass until passing 450degF. For shoulder depths I hold cases by hand at the rims when I dip, and there is no heat building at the case head to matter. Even with short 6BR length cases.
WildRose
Well-Known Member
Call me crazy but anytime your method or product is being criticized by your competitors I'm always going to be at least a bit skeptical.
What their testing showed was that on heavy/thick brass like Lapua Brass, 5-8 seconds only had a marginal effect.
What they didn't do was a test running thinner brass or run that same Lapua brass through the process for 9-11 seconds which seems to be the magic point based on what I've been able to find.
One thing it tells me is that it would be very hard to over anneal the brass by this method rendering it useless.
