Runout???

[gohring3006]

7mag, 162 ELDs

 

[gohring3006]

6.5 Creed, 140 ELDs

The .300 Weatherby is shooting the 225 BTHP just as tight I just don't have any pics..

 

[rcoody]

Personally I don't worry about runout very much for average reloads.

I do sort my rounds for long range precision work. .003 and under in the good pile and over is for sightseers. I tried the hornady cartridge straightener. In my opinion you have wrecked your neck tension by the time you straighten a bullet.

To keep runout minimal this is what I do.

Start with quality brass. I use Lapua

I use a co-ax press.

Use a quality sizing die. I prefer the forster bench rest dies but there are many out there that work just fine. I have them all. bushing dies, collet dies, body dies and full length sizing dies. I have found I don't like donuts and why neck size if every 3 to 5 firings you are going to full length resize anyway. Just set the full length die for a 0.0015 shoulder bump and go with it.

Check runout on the necks after first firing and resizing. Cull those with obvious problems. Sometimes I clean them up with a neck turner and try again.

I have found that the Wilson straight line seater is the best seating die for me.

I do have custom dies made from my fired brass. If I cull the brass I use in these dies there is no doubt they produce better ammo.

anneal every 3 to 5 firings. you can really feel the difference when seating a bullet.

 

[gohring3006]

Personally I don't worry about runout very much for average reloads.

I do sort my rounds for long range precision work. .003 and under in the good pile and over is for sightseers. I tried the hornady cartridge straightener. In my opinion you have wrecked your neck tension by the time you straighten a bullet.

To keep runout minimal this is what I do.

Start with quality brass. I use Lapua

I use a co-ax press.

Use a quality sizing die. I prefer the forster bench rest dies but there are many out there that work just fine. I have them all. bushing dies, collet dies, body dies and full length sizing dies. I have found I don't like donuts and why neck size if every 3 to 5 firings you are going to full length resize anyway. Just set the full length die for a 0.0015 shoulder bump and go with it.

Check runout on the necks after first firing and resizing. Cull those with obvious problems. Sometimes I clean them up with a neck turner and try again.

I have found that the Wilson straight line seater is the best seating die for me.

I do have custom dies made from my fired brass. If I cull the brass I use in these dies there is no doubt they produce better ammo.

anneal every 3 to 5 firings. you can really feel the difference when seating a bullet.

I tried the straitener as well. And I agree about the neck tension... I did use a CO-AX press and a Rock Chucker. I tried setting up the dies in both presses and the runout was a little better with my CO-AX but not by much. I actually didint get a real significant change in either presses, so that tells me it's either with the brass or the dies, or technique, or all of the above...

 

[gohring3006]

Measured the 140 ELD--- .005 runout.
Measured the 140 Berger Hybrid---.001 runout...
Hornady dies with seater cup made for the Amax/Eld-M..
Same brass....

 

[barefooter56]

Reloading Bench Tools: Dial Indicators | Berger Bullets
This may help the new reloaders reading this string with how to pick and set up a dial indicator/concentricity gauge unit. I personally like the SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE for easy set up for all cartridges up to and including .50 BMG and its ease of use.
TIP: Do not check the concentricity of new brass! Check concentricity on FIRED cartridge cases only. I check them before sizing , after sizing ( both on the neck about in the middle) and after bullet seating ( with the probe set as close to the bullet/ case mouth junction without touching the neck. By doing it this way you can find our what die ( if any) is causing concentricity issues and start your investigation there. If you are going to "skim cut" or neck turn your brass. Be sure to only use a BALL END MICROMETER. Calipers may look like they will work but they do not. General range of acceptability for me is .000 to .005 .

 

[Barrelnut]

Tag. Great thread. Interested in your final results, Gohring.

 

[BountyHunter]

You guys think the Imperial Graphite Neck Lube kit will help with expander ball drag and neck stretching?

If you sonic clean, you are going to need it. Otherwise you neck tension will be all over the map also.

One other thing, measure fired cases to see if it is a chamber issue to start with.

 

[tbrice23]

If you sonic clean, you are going to need it. Otherwise you neck tension will be all over the map also.

One other thing, measure fired cases to see if it is a chamber issue to start with.

True.
I use mica for that reason.

 

[gohring3006]

If you sonic clean, you are going to need it. Otherwise you neck tension will be all over the map also.

One other thing, measure fired cases to see if it is a chamber issue to start with.

I deprimed and sized all my empty brass when I got my neck die, just to try it out. That's before I started down the runout adventure...

I will get some fire formed brass this weekend and measure..

 

[gohring3006]

I dug up some fire formed brass, all the brass with every rifle is less than a .001.
So I lubed the necks with the imperial neck lube, and neck sized a 30-06 case with the Hornady neck die. Boom! .008!!!! Sized one in my RCBS FL die set up to size the neck and body but not the shoulder and got .003-.004.
I removed the expander in the Hornady neck die and got .004. So..... That die is junk!!!
I wonder if Hornady will make it right or is it in their spec?
I sized a 6.5 Creedmoor brass with the Hornady Neck die, with lubed neck and got .003 or slightly less... So I'm thinking I can maybe work with it and get it lower... Maybe..


I turned the necks on a few 30-06 brass but I don't quite have the hang of it yet, so I'm going to practice more on junk brass before I measure for a definitive answer..

So far I'm not liking Hornady reloading equipment right now. Between the die and, I realized my pins are wore out on my Lock N load single stage that I use to swage primer pockets... I am shipping it back tomorrow. I might as well send that junk die with it!!

 

[Mikecr]

I would not blame the die maker. Their design may not lend itself to 'best in runout class' specifically, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
If I were there, I could show you 50 perfect new cases(out of ~1000) with zero thickness variance.
We would fire form those 50, partial size the necks with your Hornady without the expander ball, pre-expand the necks with a Sinclair expander mandrel die, seat bullets with a Wilson inline, and then measure loaded runout below 1thou on all 50.
If you have to FL size those 50 cases then runout will grow a bit in cycles, and settle near 3thou.

I'm confident that I could do this using your Hornady die.

 

[gohring3006]

I would not blame the die maker. Their design may not lend itself to 'best in runout class' specifically, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
If I were there, I could show you 50 perfect new cases(out of ~1000) with zero thickness variance.
We would fire form those 50, partial size the necks with your Hornady without the expander ball, pre-expand the necks with a Sinclair expander mandrel die, seat bullets with a Wilson inline, and then measure loaded runout below 1thou on all 50.
If you have to FL size those 50 cases then runout will grow a bit in cycles, and settle near 3thou.

I'm confident that I could do this using your Hornady die.

Thats good to know Mike. That tells me I'm not SOL just yet.. I will keep practicing with the neck turner.



The "test" I did tonight was a hurry up and see kinda thing. I'm going to slow down and be very deliberate in my actions tomorrow and see what changes..

Edited to add.... That Imperial neck lube kit is a absolute neccesity in my reloading room from now on... Everyone should use that stuff!!!

 

[gohring3006]

Do you guys think I could be introducing runout with a press mounted to a bench that isn't perfectly flat?
Maybe the press is twisted slightly..