Reloading question for long Range?

[Scratch]

Hello

When your reloading for shooting long range, do you guys weight all your bullets and separate them into groups and then measure the bearing surface also?
I realize consistency is the key to tight groups.

Thanks in advance.

Scratch

 

[Dosh]

S, bullets and brass as well. Any thing I can eliminate from non-consistently helps.

 

[Barrelnut]

Yes, I do all of that and also sort brass.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I use Match primers, that have already been weighed and sorted by the factory. I use Nosler and Lapua brass, which has been weighed and sorted by the factory. I also use Berger bullets, which are very consistent, so I don't bother weighing them.

The only thing left on my end is weighing my charges as concentric as possible, and keeping minimal runout.

 

[Mikecr]

I do not sort by bullet weight or bearing.
While I've checked bullet weights, they did not vary enough to matter. And bearing surface in itself is meaningless to results.
IMO, the things that do matter are not shortcuts. They never will be.

 

[gohring3006]

Every time I think about doing the sorting thing. I think about those guys who don't reload, who win matches with factory Hornady and Federal match ammo. I know factories can make consistent low ES ammo, but I bet they don't measure and sort bullets by bearing surface and weight.

 

[FearNoWind]

I don't weigh or sort, and I don't check every load. I use Winchester or Lapua brass, Berger bullets, Hodgdon powder and CCI primers. Forgive the fact that this group posted a little higher and .60 MOA left of where it might normally have (just shooting for MV data with my MagnetoSpeed) but with that procedure my rifles (all of them) group like this:

.227 MOA

 

[Barrelnut]

I don't weigh or sort, and I don't check every load. I use Winchester or Lapua brass, Berger bullets, Hodgdon powder and CCI primers. Forgive the fact that this group posted a little higher and .60 MOA left of where it might normally have (just shooting for MV data with my MagnetoSpeed) but with that procedure my rifles (all of them) group like this:

.227 MOA

Sorting is for Long Range consistency not for 100 yard groups. Actually more for Long Range Hunting... Cause who really gives a rip if you have a flyer in your group, but if you have 5 or 6 thousand in a hunt and a 800 yard shot on the last day, that flyer might get to be an issue with you. You are really trying to find those few bullets in 100 or 200 that fall well out of the bell curve range enough to affect POI at long range. Bryn Litz advocates base to Ogive sorting. The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit's advocate sorting for long range competition. The Team Savage guys sorted bullets AND brass.

 

[Greyfox]

Did a lot of sorting in my early days but the suppliers have come a long way. I have found it unnecessary to sort using '"same lot" Lapua or Norma brass, and Berger/JLK bullets(recently released Hornady ELD-x bullets look to be very consistent as well). Once I establish my load for a particular LR rifle I will buy a sufficient supply of the same lot of brass, bullets primers, and powder. I will fireform, then trim/chamfer the brass. Charges are weighed to within .1 grains. My LR rigs achieve consistent <.5MOA accuracy at 1000 yards using this approach.

"Perfect is the Enemy of Good"-Voltaire

 

[FearNoWind]

Sorting is for Long Range consistency not for 100 yard groups. Actually more for Long Range Hunting... Cause who really gives a rip if you have a flyer in your group, but if you have 5 or 6 thousand in a hunt and a 800 yard shot on the last day, that flyer might get to be an issue with you. You are really trying to find those few bullets in 100 or 200 that fall well out of the bell curve range enough to affect POI at long range. Bryn Litz advocates base to Ogive sorting. The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit's advocate sorting for long range competition. The Team Savage guys sorted bullets AND brass.

Good point Barrelnut. That load does open up to .66 MOA at 6 hundred yards and I can expect a disappointing 1 MOA at 1K using it. So I limit my hunting shots to 800 yards.

... The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit's advocate sorting for long range competition. The Team Savage guys sorted bullets AND brass.

I agree. However those guys are shooting competitively. They aren't hunters. They can't afford anything that won't shoot bug holes at any distance.

"... that flyer might get to be an issue..." Most "flyers", in my experience, are attributable to the shooter rather than the ammo. Hunter excitement (and it's still a factor no matter how long you've been hunting) fogs the brain and we sometimes forget that too much cheek, too much pressure on the rear bag, improper loading of the bipod, a small error on the shoulder contact all lead to embarrassing results on target. Then, of course, there is that nasty wind influence. IMO, it doesn't matter how good your load is. If you extend the range beyond your ability to shoot accurately not even Bryan Litz (whom I have the utmost respect for) can help you.


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[Barrelnut]

Good for you, but no one is talking about sorting helping any one shoot beyond their abilities. I will say that one has to be able to shoot accurately enough to be able to discern the benefits of sorting, if not you would indeed be wasting your time.

 

[Mikecr]

Sorting is a waste of time anyway unless taken to actual understanding of the results. Otherwise, sorting can actually cause greater disparities in results.
This can happen with BTO comparisons, while not separating individual attributes here (ED, BTL, BEARING, OGIVE RADIUS), and not combining them to nose length, meplat diameter, bullet diameter, and bullet weight to arrive at resulting BC under given MV and std atmosphere conditions.
Same with any of these parameters on their own. Same with weight sorting brass, while not followup validating actual H20 capacities.
You could sort primers in some fashion, but it would be meaningless until first taking seating & striking attributes to optimized standards.
You could sort powder kernels as well. But the efforts would likely be little to nothing gained(as far as your measure of it).

Probably sound like I'm against extra efforts to improve here,, but I'm not.
I'm against wrong and unqualified efforts -unless for understanding.

 

[Barrelnut]

Ok, I think the OP's question concerned sorting procedure and not a debate on whether sorting actually helps, but I will play some more.

I understand Mikecr's points and FNW's shooter error variables. You take those points and variables and the fact that lots of times errors and inconsistencies tend to cancel each other out, and it would seem that any small accuracy gain attained from sorting would be inconsequential at best. But that is not always the case, sometimes they compound and as per Murphy's law at the worst possible moment. Consider the following.

I looked at a group of sorted 208 Amax I have. I believe it was 300 hundred of the same lot when I sorted. I label the sorted bullets by bearing surface and weight range and place priority on bearing surface. Hornady bullets sort way worse than say Bergers and I hope Greyfox is right that the ELD-X bullets are proving more consistent.

Have a few here that have a .6% variance in bearing surface and .25% variance in weight. Doesn't sound like much, but they will affect ES/SD and it is easily seen over the chrony.

Now I have 300 RUM that shoots these bullets at 3070 fps. If that .6% error in bearing surface causes a .6% error in speed, the bullet could be going 20 fps slower when it exits the barrel. That is 2" or about .25 MOA lower at 800 yards. Now consider that I have a foggy brain and the shakes as FNW suggest, I might accidentally drop the hammer 2" lower. Add to that the possibility the animal is actually at 805 yards instead of 800 yards due to a ranging error and suddenly I am 6" or about 3/4 MOA low. That is really getting marginal and could affect the final outcome, IMO anyway. So, If I have sorted bullets well, I might not have lost that 20 FPS and minimized the low hit by 30%. That's makes sorting for long range hunting worth it for me.

I have shot in competition and proved to myself that sorting works. Effects of sorting are not something you easily notice with 3 or even 5 shot groups at 600~ 1k. Fire 20 shots though and you will start to see the difference. If you take 5 score cards where you sorted and 5 score cards where you didn't, you will probably find higher scores on the sorted score cards. For me something like 2~3 more X scores.

So, sorting really doesn't take long, improves my competition scores a bit, and gives me a better margin of error on long range shots in the field. Doesn't really make me a better shooter but I feel it improves my chances a bit.