Reasonable Expectations

[memtb]

The rather lengthy, recent thread,

Why I do no run a lightweight hunting rifle

……prompted me to ask about something that's bothered me for some time!

What should be reasonable accuracy expectations be for a rifle such as mine?

The rifle is somewhat light (sub 9# when shooting from the bench) considering cartridge (59 ft./ lbs) recoil, no muzzle break on rifle, scope is 10X at maximum, and the shooter is of average skills at best.

I'd like to determine what some of the much better, more experienced shooters would consider acceptable accuracy from the bench with this hunting rifle package? I know that we all desire more and better groups, with my self-imposed limit of 600 yards (ideal conditions)…….what accuracy could or should be considered good at 100 yards.

I realize that is a kind of a vanity question……trying to evaluate my expectations!

Thanks for humoring me! memtb

 

[asd9055]

Very interesting, following to learn....memtb...did you say muzzle brake?

 

[memtb]

Very interesting, following to learn....memtb...did you say muzzle brake?

It actually had one (KDF slim line) on it, when I received it!

I test fired it twice, one time on two different occasions……without ear protection, which is the way that I hunt! I determined that I do not need nor want a brake……it was removed, never to be seen again! memtb

 

[Hand Skills]

….what accuracy could or should be considered good at 100 yards.

I realize that is a kind of a vanity question……trying to evaluate my expectations!

Thanks for humoring me! memtb

Bugholes and clover leaves are nice,

...but an aggregate of 10 shots tells a lot more.

I have confidence in a rifle that will aggregate 10 cold bore shots, shot on 10 different days, into 1moa.

The first shot is worth all the rest.

 

[memtb]

Bugholes and clover leaves are nice,

...but an aggregate of 10 shots tells a lot more.

I have confidence in a rifle that will aggregate 10 cold bore shots, shot on 10 different days, into 1moa.

The first shot is worth all the rest.

Does rifle recoil factor in at all into your 1 moa or am I just a "puss"? memtb

 

[tomcat818]

Any elephant\dangerous game hunters out there that might answers this mans question? ha ha
Not many North American hunters or even ELR competitors shooting small cannons on a regular basis.
@memtb Might have to check the African Hunting blog they get into great detail on this subject IE:

Funny these guys consider a 458 Lott recoil to be moderate If I could take my 300WM and my 270 Win and fire them at the same time recoil would still be 1 1/2 6.5 Creedmores short of 458 Lott

Rationalizing Big Bore Cartridge Performance: A Data-Driven Analysis

Choosing the right big bore cartridge for hunting can be a complex decision. Often, discussions are dominated by personal preferences, anecdotes, and emotional arguments, making it challenging to objectively assess cartridge performance. To address this, this article presents a data-driven analysis of popular big bore cartridges. The aim is to rationalize cartridge performance by objectively evaluating key variables, enabling hunters and shooters to make informed choices based on their specific needs and priorities. While performance is central to this analysis, it's important to remember that personal enjoyment and historical significance are also valid aspects of cartridge selection.

Methodology: A Consistent Data Framework

For consistent and comparable analysis, factory load data serves as the default data source for this study, unless explicitly stated otherwise for specific cartridges. The data presented will focus on maximum powder loads for consistency.

Key Performance Metrics:

The following metrics were selected to provide a comprehensive assessment of cartridge performance. These metrics are crucial for understanding a cartridge's capability in big game hunting scenarios:

• Bullet Type and Weight: Specifies the bullet type used in the factory load and its weight in grains.
• Powder and Charge: Indicates the type and amount of powder used in the load (by weight).
• Maximum Velocity: The muzzle velocity of the bullet, measured in feet per second (fps).
• Energy: The kinetic energy of the bullet at the muzzle, measured in foot-pounds (ft-lbs).
• Energy Efficiency: This metric, calculated as a percentage, represents the efficiency of the cartridge in converting the chemical energy of the powder into kinetic energy of the bullet. A higher percentage indicates more efficient energy conversion.
• Momentum: Bullet momentum describes the bullet's impetus, its forward force of motion. Crucial for penetration, momentum dictates the bullet's ability to maintain forward motion as it encounters resistance. Higher momentum contributes to deeper penetration.
• Sectional Density (SD): Sectional Density is defined as the ratio of a bullet's mass to its cross-sectional area. A higher sectional density signifies a greater concentration of bullet mass within a smaller frontal area, resulting in less resistance and improved penetration through tissue and bone.
• Sectional Area (SA): This metric quantifies the bullet's cross-sectional area, determined by its caliber. Sectional area is indicative of the potential size of the wound channel created by the bullet. A larger sectional area may contribute to faster incapacitation through increased tissue damage.

Why am I not using "Taylor's knock out factor" to indicate terminal performance?

While metrics like the Taylor Knock Out factor (TKO) exist, they can be misleading. TKO can overemphasize factors like bullet mass and caliber, potentially masking deficiencies in crucial areas like sectional density. For example, a bullet with a high TKO score due to large mass and caliber might still exhibit poor sectional density, hindering its penetration capability and ultimately its effectiveness on game.

Therefore, this analysis treats Momentum, Sectional Density, and Sectional Area as independent and equally vital variables. Their functions in incapacitating game are distinct and non-overlapping:

• Low Sectional Density: Impairs bullet penetration, limiting the bullet's ability to reach vital organs.
• Low Momentum: Results in rapid deceleration of the bullet upon impact, reducing penetration depth and potentially hindering vital organ damage.
• Low Sectional Area: Restricts the size of the wound channel, potentially slowing incapacitation due to reduced tissue damage area.

Secondly, Managing recoil is crucial for accurate and comfortable shooting, especially with powerful cartridges. Here are some key factors to consider:

• Recoil Velocity:
  
  • Velocities below 15 FPS are generally considered safe for extended shooting sessions with proper technique.
  • Velocities exceeding 15 FPS increase the risk of developing a flinch, with cumulative effects over time, and present a small risk of headache with prolonged use.
  • Velocities above 20 FPS significantly increase the risk of severe headaches, also with cumulative effects.
  • The U.S. military restricts personnel to weapons generating no more than 60 ft-lbs of recoil energy, deeming higher levels unacceptable.
  • Cartridges producing over 50 ft-lbs require significant preparation and mastery of recoil management techniques.
  • For cartridges generating over 70 ft-lbs, a heavier rifle (over 10 pounds) or recoil mitigation devices (e.g., muzzle brakes, specialized clothing) are strongly recommended.

Personal Analysis: Evaluating Big Bore Cartridges

The .458 Caliber Group

The 458 Caliber Group consistently demonstrates high performance across key metrics. The .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott, in particular, achieve exceptional energy efficiency while maintaining strong killing potential and moderate recoil. This balance explains their popularity among game rangers and for culling operations in Africa. Similarly, the .450 Rigby and .460 Wby Mag offer impressive performance, with their terminal effectiveness often rivaling, and in some cases even surpassing, certain .50 caliber cartridges. However, the increased recoil of the .450 Rigby, and especially the .460 Wby Mag, may exceed the physical tolerance of many shooters. Notably, the .458 caliber group stands out for its strong performance across all metrics (indicated by green color-coding), reflecting a well-rounded and highly effective cartridge design for hunting large game."


The 50 Caliber Group

The .505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery boast impressive killing power and are a serious step up from the 458 Winchester Mag and 458 Lott in terminal performance and are best described as stopping cartridges designed to fit in a versatile bolt action rifle, primarily driven by its large sectional area and momentum values.

However, this performance comes at a significant cost, and the recoil energy for both the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs are beyond the capabilities of most shooters. While the 500 Jeffey has significantly less recoil energy than the 505 Gibs up to 15 ft Lbs less. Due to its reduced powder charge because of its impressive cartridge efficiency (31 percent).

The 505 Gibbs exhibits the lowest energy conversion efficiency among the cartridges analyzed with (525gr bullets), raising questions about whether the substantial recoil generated is fully justified by its relative performance gains compared to more efficient cartridges.

The .40 Caliber Group

The .404 Jeffery, while some factory load data reflects performance close to its original design, other loads demonstrate greater potential with either increased power or reduced recoil (42 ft-lbs) by lowering the ejecta mass of the powder charge, all while maintaining impressive terminal performance.

Meanwhile, the .416 Rigby, originally designed for use with cordite propellants, exhibits lower energy conversion efficiency—a common trait of cartridges developed for early smokeless powders. However, its 450-grain load represents a significant improvement, offering better terminal performance while also reducing recoil by 8 ft-lbs from 55 ft-lbs, making it a more manageable option for shooters seeking a balance of power and comfort.

The .405 Winchester, despite achieving a high Taylor Knock-Out (TKO) factor, is poorly suited for thick-skinned dangerous game due to its limitations in momentum (leading to quicker loss of forward motion) and sectional density (reducing penetration). Lastly, the .416 Weatherby Magnum stands out for its high momentum and sectional density, but its comparatively lower sectional area may contribute to excessive penetration, increasing the risk of wounding animals beyond the intended target.

The .358 to .375 Caliber Group

Cartridges in the .358 to .375 caliber range generally exhibit lower sectional area and momentum compared to larger caliber groups. However, with the exception of the last three cartridges in this group, they offer the benefit of significantly reduced recoil compared to their larger counterparts.

The .375 caliber group, in particular, retains significant value due to its versatility—excelling in plains game hunting with good ballistic trajectories and a wide selection of bullets suited for both dangerous game and standard hunting applications.

Within this group, the .375 H&H Magnum presents a balanced performance profile with manageable recoil, widespread popularity, and ammunition availability, making it a well-rounded choice. Similarly, the .375 Ruger delivers commendable performance, especially given its optimized design for shorter, 20-inch barrels, making it a more compact alternative with similar ballistic effectiveness.

The .35 Whelen, while exhibiting high energy efficiency, lags behind the other cartridges in this group in overall killing power metrics and is included primarily for illustrative purposes.

The Double Rifle Cartridges Group

The analysis of double rifle cartridges offers valuable insights, particularly highlighting the .500 Nitro Express with outstanding terminal performance values. It surpasses the .470 Nitro Express in key performance metrics, delivering 16% greater sectional area and 11% higher momentum. This represents a significant improvement in stopping power, explaining why it's a favorite among elephant hunters, making it a more efficient option. However, this success comes with the downside of producing 12 to 19 more ft-lbs of recoil energy, depending on the load, than the .470 Nitro Express.

Among these traditional big-game cartridges, the .450 Nitro Express emerges as a well-balanced choice, combining strong energy efficiency, excellent terminal performance, and more manageable recoil. Its effectiveness during the golden age of African hunting cemented its reputation, and even today, it remains a highly capable and versatile option for hunters seeking a potent yet controllable big bore cartridge. Given its historical significance and practical advantages, a renewed appreciation for the .450 Nitro Express should encourage greater availability of factory double rifles chambered in this caliber.

The .450/400 Nitro Express 3" is a highlight among these cartridges for being the only one close to producing under 15 fps of Recoil Velocity and 36 ft-lbs of recoil energy. Its excellent terminal performance, combined with its "shootability", allows hunters to hit their intended target zone with quick follow-up shots, something that cannot be matched by any other double rifle. This makes it an outstanding option for hunters who prioritize accuracy and speed while still demanding powerful performance from their double rifle.

One Cartridge to Hunt the World?

When considering the best all-around cartridge for hunting a wide range of game, the strong contenders are the .375 H&H and the .416 Remington Magnum. The .416 Remington Magnum excels in terminal performance, especially with 400-grain bullets, which show a notable advantage in momentum (25%), sectional area (25%), and sectional density (10%) compared to the .375 H&H. However, with the introduction of new 350-grain .375-caliber bullets, the performance gap between these two cartridges has narrowed significantly.

As Dr. Kevin Robinson points out, the 350-grain .375-caliber bullet now performs nearly as well as the 400-grain .40-caliber bullet on large game. The numbers between the two are very close, with the .40-caliber round having slightly more momentum and a larger sectional area, while the .375-caliber round has a notably higher sectional density (0.356 compared to 0.33).

Additionally, the .375 H&H offers two advantages over the .416 Remington Magnum. First, it benefits from a wider availability of high-ballistic coefficient (BC) hunting bullets, making it potentially more suitable for long-range hunting, such as sheep hunting. However, with advances from Cutting-Edge Bullets, this advantage may soon diminish.


The second advantage of the .375 H&H is its significantly reduced recoil—up to 20 to 30 percent less recoil energy compared to the .416 Remington Magnum, depending on the load. This makes the .375 H&H a more attractive option for recoil-sensitive hunters or those who need to shoot larger volumes, as the reduced recoil can make the shooter more comfortable and effective.

 

[Hand Skills]

Does rifle recoil factor in at all into your 1 moa or am I just a "puss"? memtb

For sure it does, but that's more about 'me' than it is the rifle.

My experience has been that without a consistent hold, Point of Impact can deviate from Point of Aim especially with a heavy recoiling platform.

That's one of the reasons I conduct my 'grouping' over several days. The results expose any inconsistencies not just in the rifle, but also the shooter.

Back when I was a 300yd and in guy, I had much more relaxed standards. For many years I hunted with what, by my current standards, was probably a 2moa gun.

...As range increases, so too must precision.

 

[BRADMOTO]

A rifle that shoots the first cold bore shot same POI, or two shots sub minute will do anything the shooter can do.

 

[Koda_]

I'd like to determine what some of the much better, more experienced shooters would consider acceptable accuracy from the bench with this hunting rifle package? I know that we all desire more and better groups, with my self-imposed limit of 600 yards (ideal conditions)…….what accuracy could or should be considered good at 100 yards.

From a benchrest and a bolt action I expect a maximum of 1moa groups or better from the rifle and ammo.

Its worth noting this is different than what I shoot from field positions. At the benchrest, using a front rest and sandbags to eliminate all user error as possible to judge what the rifle is capable of. 1moa is max.

 

[lancetkenyon]

"The rifle is somewhat light (sub 9# when shooting from the bench) considering cartridge (59 ft./ lbs) recoil, no muzzle break on rifle, scope is 10X at maximum, and the shooter is of average skills at best."

In all honesty, this single sentence makes me think 1.0 MOA would be my goal, 1.5MOA would be realistic and acceptable. Not sure what round it is, but it is a thumper for sure.

My 10# 300PRC pushing a 230 Hyb @ 2996fps suppressed is only creating approximately 35 to 39ft/lbs of recoil energy. It is sub 1/3MOA @ 100 and 200, and extremely accurate out to 1400 (as far as I have shot it so far). But, after about 10-12 rounds, I am done shooting it for the day. It is not a fun rifle to shoot.

I have too many other rifles to take to the range when I go bang steel and rocks and unsuspecting small game for practice, than to suffer shooting a shoulder mounted Howitzer.

 

[dogz]

Bugholes and clover leaves are nice,

...but an aggregate of 10 shots tells a lot more.

I have confidence in a rifle that will aggregate 10 cold bore shots, shot on 10 different days, into 1moa.

The first shot is worth all the rest.

We all have our personal standards, mine has always revolved around hunting/field condition accuracy. Sure I want it to shoot as tight as I can from the bench but to me the litmus test of the rifle, ammo and more importantly myself is the following. Keep in mind it works for me and I'm the only one I need to make happy...

I run pie plates, I load 3 rounds, I hit the deck and shoot off a bipod or a pack just like I would under field conditions. Here's the catch, I want to hit the deck, and shoot 3 rounds at 10 seconds (timed) or under with the obvious goal of 3 hits. To whatever range I can do that to I feel comfy I can take shots in the field to that range. IE. if I can keep all 3 rounds on the plate @ 500 yds (or name your range) then I feel I am good to go at that range as long as the conditions are right to take the shot.

Just my way, doesn't have to be anymore else's.

Side note, again this is my choice but all my rifles are 9 lbs or less field ready.

 

[memtb]

Thanks guys! You've given a lot of information…..some of it was pretty beneficial for my situation!

I was trying to ascertain what an accomplished marksman, thought that he/she could expect or desire to shoot off of the bench with my rifle……assuming of course that the rifle is accurate.

I do understand and accept that shooting from field positions, is less stable but also gives less "felt" recoil…. groups will generally be considerably larger in the field than groups shot from the bench.

In other words…..I was trying to determine what 3 shot group size should a "mere mortal" expect to repeat on a day to day basis. I do understand that everyone occasionally has a bad day……I'm living proof of that!

I think that Lance, perhaps more closely answered my question! Lance, in responding to your statement about shooting a lot….. minimal shooting will be do on paper or steel, it's primary use is hunting!

dogz gave what I see as a pretty good "practical" field test!

I think that it would be quite a test (for me) to perform to Hand Skills expectations…..I may have to try it and thoroughly embarrass myself! And yes, it's a test of me the shooter……though, I really don't know what the rifle is capable of fired by a good rifleman.

Thank You to all that responded…..I just singled out a few comments! memtb

 

[MaineLRH]

What should be reasonable accuracy expectations be for a rifle such as mine?

I think with modern CNC machining; most new manufactured rifles should be capable of pretty close to MOA. I'm finding ammo to be a week link more so than the gun, so finding accurate ammo is a challenge. But I think its reasonable to expect a new rifle with the right ammo to shoot MOA off the bench. But shooting in field conditions and differing shooter abilities, I'd expect someone shooting "minute of pie plate" off hand to contain their shots on game to under 100 yards.

When we were organizing six-man deer drives, the only "new" guys allowed to participate with the group were guys who showed up and were able to shoot a paper plate at 50 yards off hand with their muzzleloader or slug gun. At least in theory. If we didn't "test" and the new guy missed a deer, we'd then make him shoot before he was allowed to be a stander again. If he couldn't shoot straight enough, he wasn't invited back the next day. I was surprised how many guys over the years, warned that they were expected to shoot this low level of accuracy, showed up with mismatched ammo, loose scopes or guns they'd never shot before, and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn. Nothing is more irritating than pushing through a large hillside briar patch and coming out the other side exhausted, sweaty, bloody and torn, only to meet a stander who missed the deer you pushed to him because he lied about his abilities and preparedness.

 

[dfanonymous]

There can be different standards. The shot that really matters for hunting generally is the first one, and ideally the only one. Right?

A barrel that is saving weight can't be a 26 inch MTU barrel. Often you're going to have a smaller profile barrel, so right away, you're going to have issues related to heat dissipation if you're shooting it like a PRS rifle. Groups will open up.

If you're carrying a bigger bore magnum, then recoil mitigation might be a problem for some.

Other than that, if fundamentals are there, and rifle is capable, it should shoot what it's going to shoot in general. In other words, if you're a 1/4 moa shooter, and your rifle is a 1/4 moa shooter, there shouldn't be a reason why you can hit a half moa target cold barrel.