Really!

[orkan]

I am glad to know that you have a personal moral limit. The problem with your black and white analysis is if done your way there would be no laws only the pentance paid at life's end. Sounds much like anarchy.

If you're only going to infer the worst possible outcomes from everything I say, we have nothing further to discuss. If there's no room for reasonable interpretation or discussion, and you simply wish to win the argument, I'll grant you the win right now.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I think that would be morally wrong, and I'd be against it. However, no entity should be able to force that sporting goods store to modify its behavior. There will be a price that immoral person will pay, but it isn't the place of any of us to visit that price upon them.

I will not be drawn into an argument about it, nor will I entertain the connection between what is right and just as it correlates to the "law." People seem to enjoy weaponizing the law when it suits them, and would defang it when it doesn't. The law has been twisted into the same justifications for immoral injustice across the entire world. Always has.

There is no moral argument for forcing the cooperation of another. As a result, any justification for forcing that cooperation is simply an attempt to assuage guilt on the part of the person claiming rights to another persons property.

You either believe in individual liberty always, or you don't believe in it ever. You don't get to have it both ways. The very term "price gouging" is reliant upon the judgement of value of what you have, by someone else. You don't get to set the value of what someone else owns. Period. The moral obligation that person has to provide fair prices is a matter between them and their creator. There will be a price to pay for immoral acts. I'm quite sure of that. Though it is not my place to judge. What is theirs, is THEIRS. I have no claim or right to it.

People either understand that, or they support communism and socialism, no matter their claim to the contrary.

I guess you missed your part where you are already engaging in this argument.

 

[Chrsm]

Don't worry, It may be a while or a long while but there's gong to be some cheap components out there for sale when the hoarders realized they will never use what they bought up.

I hope so! I'm ready to come in from this storm! The future looks expensive! My jobs not throwing me any more money! Tired of the new administration, full of fear and uncertainty. I believe this is the main cause!

 

[Rosebud]

There's got to be more to this, lack of Ammo and components. We get told that production is up! But nothing ever hits the distributors, gun shops, box stores..... what is really going on here? Last time there was at least a trickle. This time nothing! I'm very skeptical.

For what it's worth, my local gun shop owner just bought $1.5 million dollars worth of ammunition. His store has a brisk business. He expects it to arrive within the next 6 weeks.

 

[Wolf76]

Price gouging doesn't exist. It's a made-up term used to alleviate people's guilt in perpetrating crimes against people that have something they want.

I've read your posts and you've made some statements I agree with in principal. The "Price Gouging Doesn't Exist" statement severely hurts your credibility. I'm attaching a link for all the states that have "Price Gouging" laws. I think you'd see that the current ammo/component prices meet the criteria in many areas.

Price Gouging Laws by State - FindLaw

FindLaw's extensive state-by-state listing of price gouging laws.

www.findlaw.com

I suspect most here fully understand supply and demand, along with increased cost of materials. IMO the prices are much higher than the raw materials increases would produce.

Personally, my supply of shooting materials is just fine and I'm doing well financially (due to the grace of God and wise decisions). I can afford these insane prices, but opt not to. Same reason I'm not buying a house right now - good time to get hurt financially.

 

[longestrange]

People have ideas and other people have different ones. It is important to separate the idea from the person.
We are all friends here at LRH and that is the important thing. Friendship is a valuable thing, and the way things are going it may become crucial.
"We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Ben Franklin

 

[orkan]

I guess you missed your part where you are already engaging in this argument.

You win too. Congrats.

I've read your posts and you've made some statements I agree with in principal. The "Price Gouging Doesn't Exist" statement severely hurts your credibility. I'm attaching a link for all the states that have "Price Gouging" laws. I think you'd see that the current ammo/component prices meet the criteria in many areas.

Popularity means very little to me. I disagree with every gun control law and every "price gouging" law, regardless of how popular they both are.

No one should have claim to someone else's property. No one should be able to set the price its to be sold for. It's contrary to freedom. Period. If that damages my credibility with someone, then I do not concern myself with the opinion of that person. Anyone that can justify "forcing" someone else to sell their property at a price the BUYER sets, is in violation of free will and in violation of individual liberty.

I can be FOR what is morally right, and also be against the violation of free will.

Secondly, if you read the link you sent, almost ALL price gouging laws are in reference to "A declared state of emergency." There is no justifiable argument that there is a declared state of emergency. This is nothing but impatient people upset at their inability to have what they want immediately, and deferred guilt as a result of their inability to plan ahead. It's not an emergency. It's not water or food or shelter. It's primers and bullets. Despite the tongue-in-cheek humor that can be applied to that situation given how seriously some of us take this sport... it is NOT life or death. Even if it were, forcing someone to do something for someone else's benefit is contrary to the universal law and biblical law which governs a free and just society.

There's nothing I can do about people's unwillingness to recognize that using force against someone else to get their cooperation is wrong in every instance. It's very sad to me to see that tactic is so commonplace that not only is it accepted, but people will fight to keep it and attack those that try to suggest an alternate path.

I think there has been enough compromise. I think there needs to be a bit more black and white. What is right and what is wrong does not bend to the will of modern societal norms. I do not believe that just because something is socially accepted or expected, that it must also be morally or biblically good. It often is not. Most often, what is popular is not right. If this makes me your enemy or your target. So be it.

 

[Wolf76]

"Secondly, if you read the link you sent, almost ALL price gouging laws are in reference to "A declared state of emergency." There is no justifiable argument that there is a declared state of emergency."

This is the problem. It started with "price gouging doesn't exist" and I provide laws that factually contradict the statement. Then "There's no justifiable argument that there's a declared state of emergency" and the article specifies that many states are in a declared state of emergency due to Covid 19 (start with the individual state listings and go down the list...Alabama is first and they are in an emergency state for example). If you'd like to share your opinions, completely cool with me. When you start making claims that are factually incorrect, then there's an issue.


I wonder if you'd be ok with hospitals 2x,3x,4x their prices during declared emergencies and your personal emergency (heart attack). After all, you can buy most of the equipment and supplies on the open market. A large portion of the bill for is labor and head knowledge... why shouldn't they make the most of the situation? This scenario sounds kind of foolish/evil and adds context to this discussion.
FWIW.. I'm a huge civil liberties advocate and I work in hospitals for a living. Supply and demand is a great system if there is minimal oversight.

 

[orkan]

"Secondly, if you read the link you sent, almost ALL price gouging laws are in reference to "A declared state of emergency." There is no justifiable argument that there is a declared state of emergency."

This is the problem. It started with "price gouging doesn't exist" and I provide laws that factually contradict the statement. Then "There's no justifiable argument that there's a declared state of emergency" and the article specifies that many states are in a declared state of emergency due to Covid 19 (start with the individual state listings and go down the list...Alabama is first and they are in an emergency state for example). If you'd like to share your opinions, completely cool with me. When you start making claims that are factually incorrect, then there's an issue.


I wonder if you'd be ok with hospitals 2x,3x,4x their prices during declared emergencies and your personal emergency (heart attack). After all, you can buy most of the equipment and supplies on the open market. A large portion of the bill for is labor and head knowledge... why shouldn't they make the most of the situation? This scenario sounds kind of foolish/evil and adds context to this discussion.
FWIW.. I'm a huge civil liberties advocate and I work in hospitals for a living. Supply and demand is a great system if there is minimal oversight.

Your hospital analogy doesn't scare me. It proves my point. An emergency on the part of someone else, does not make an emergency for me. An emergency for me, does not make one for someone else. None of the foundational bedrock principles of personal liberty and ownership are subject to the definitions or declarations of someone else. No one owes me health care. No one owes me water. No one owes me food. Whatever they own or whatever skills they have, are THEIRS. Because they are in possession of those things and those skills, THEY set the price by which those things are distributed. They decide who, when, how, and how much. This is a universal truth, up to and including my death and the death of everyone I care about. I am not justified in taking by force or dictating the price of any of the goods and services that any other person or group of persons owns or has. If your life is worth so much to you... then you should be willing to pay any price asked for it.

My physical life has very little value when compared to the value of my soul. My soul, is my most precious possession. I'll use what life I have to pursue the best of things and attempt to help as many as I can. Yet, inevitably, this life will end. Whether tomorrow or at some point in the distant future. All that makes me who I am, however, will persist. This petty blink of existence here weighs nothing against the eternal home of my soul. No one owes me anything. I'll negotiate with them for the things that I desire, but what is theirs is theirs. They have no responsibility for my needs other than that which they agree to bear.

People act as if any other attitude is just. It isn't just. It is wrong. If you accept the mindset that it is OK for someone to be forced to sell something at a price they do not agree to, then you not only fully support socialism, you automatically agree to cooperating in kind when someone comes to force YOU to do their bidding. Would you like that? Would you like someone deciding for you what you will do? Because THAT is exactly what you are talking about. Yet society at large is too cowardly to go do this dirty work themselves. Instead they elect other people and empower them to go do the taking for you. Then you'll have the opportunity to claim that you didn't want it to happen, yet all the while ensuring it would happen. When they come for you and what you own, I hope you will be as cavalier with your socialistic attitude.

If I have a choice between forcing someone else's hand, and dying. I'll happily die. I can attempt to negotiate with them, but if they don't want to negotiate... there is nothing I can do. If this past year has shown me anything, it's that I am far more alone than I had ever dreamed. The core principles of ownership and individual responsibility that I thought were alive and well in this country, are far more dead than I had ever imagined. I have an obligation to stay here and help as many people as I can, but on the day of my death, it will indeed be a reward. I never understood that when I was young. People dying and others saying "they received their great reward," never made sense to me. As an adult, I understand fully. It is torturous to see the twisted reality of socially accepted norms work its wicked ways as we slide closer to oblivion. People are so accustomed to seeing things taken from others, it doesn't even bother people anymore. People's malevolence is astonishing and seems to know no boundaries. What value is my life if I have to force someone else's cooperation to keep it? I made an agreement with my creator and myself to never knowingly participate in that kind of treachery. I will stand in the face of certain death and spit on those that would subjugate my fellow man. I don't care if I'm the last one on earth with that mindset, I will not set it down. I will only ever ask for another's cooperation. I will not force it, lest I be forced myself in the future. I will not cooperate with nor toy with the darkest of forces that would lead me to dictate to another the value of their property or skills.

There are eternal consequences that reach far beyond this life. I will happily accept persecution here by untrustworthy men that do not respect individuality, if it guarantees my place with the Father after this life. All of you owe me nothing. As a function of that reality, I owe YOU nothing other than that which I choose to give of my own volition. Any attempt made to make it otherwise, I will resist. It matters not to me if I'm the last person on earth that holds the belief that individual ownership is sacred. I will keep my soul free from the allure of those darkest of forces that would entice me to lay claim to that which is not mine. My soul will not be food for the beast. Offer yourself if you wish... but I will not.

 

[Rich Coyle]

"Popularity means very little to me. I disagree with every gun control law and every "price gouging" law, regardless of how popular they both are."

Your opinion does not establish facts. Facts are not subject to your whims.

"There's nothing I can do about people's unwillingness to recognize that using force against someone else to get their cooperation is wrong in every instance."

You you don't mind rape and murder and child abuse?

" All of you owe me nothing. As a function of that reality, I owe YOU nothing"

You should like you are religious. IF you are using the God of the Bible then you do owe everyone: "Owe no except the continuing debt of love one another."

 

[orkan]

Facts are not subject to your whims.

Nor yours.

 

[Old Rooster]

Went on Valley Powder website and they had some shotgun primers ,which I need,and even some powder but when I tried to buy some H4350 as I added to cart it said it was gone.
That was a few days ago and I would bet that bots bought most if not all.
I miss the days when you bought things like that in person.
Maybe tomorrow but I wouldn't bet on it.
Old Rooster

 

[Chrsm]

Still nothing!!!?? This is not good for are sport!!! Not good at all!!!!

 

[Chrsm]

Still nothing. ***