Proof Barrels And Shermans.....WOW !

[adam32+P]

I do not think it's to much to ask for a company to be held accountable for their products.

So it's not too much to ask for Sherman shooters to hold Proof accountable and publicly flame them? But then everyone else that asks Sherman shooters for real pressure data to support their wildly high velocity claims is too much to ask?

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

This entire thread is against forum rules as it is.

 

[bigngreen]

So it's not too much to ask for Sherman shooters to hold Proof accountable and publicly flame them? But then everyone else that asks Sherman shooters for real pressure data to support their wildly high velocity claims is too much to ask?

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

This entire thread is against forum rules as it is.

You still seem to forget or just don't care there has been some pressure testing, the fact is it's boring because you quickly find out pressure is pressure and what pressure shows on the parent case shows on the wildcat, can you mask some of them sure but you can not magically make them go away. The same concepts that worked for Gibbs and Ackley work for Sherman, I know it chaffs you hard but they'll out live both of us and guys will be building them far into the future.

 

[Pdvdh]

Longrange338:

I think I follow...

I own a couple 30 SMs. When I develop loads for them, I do it no differently than I do for any of the other cartridge chamberings in my other rifles. Whether they be SAAMI adopted chamberings, or wildcat chamberings.

My 30 SM hunting loads probably operate at higher pressure than the maximum loads listed on Hodgdon's website for the cartridges they do list load data for. I consider my 30 SM cartridges safe, when fired in my rifles.

Likewise, I don't strictly limit my maximum powder charges to those maximums listed on Hodgdon's load data website for the SAAMI cartridges I load for. I develop maximum loads based on primer pocket life, case head ejector marks, bolt lift resistance, measured case head expansion, and fired primer appearance. Those maximum loads are developed no differently than for my Sherman cartridges.

My understanding is the majority of experienced reloaders on this Forum observe the same indicators of pressure when developing acceptable "maximum" powder charges (pressures) for their individual rifles.

Any reloader can blow themselves and their rifles up, no matter the cartridge chambering, if they work at. A fellow reloader I knew from high school welded his Remington 700 bolt to the action, in spite of having reloading manuals, and their prescribed maximum powder charges available. His Rem was chambered in .243 Winchester. He presumed gun powders were substitutable. He substituted whatever powder he had available, at the charge weight shown in his reloading manual.

Some folk would no doubt be better served shooting factory ammo. On the other hand, even factory ammo has been manufactured and retail sold over-pressured. And damaged rifles. Has happened in the past. Will happen again in the future.

Proof has no way of knowing what cartridge their barrels will be chambered for, once they've been shipped out for retail sale. Sherman cartridges, SAAMI adopted cartridges, or any other imaginable wildcat cartridge. This is true no matter the nature of their relationship with elkaholic, or their opinion of Sherman cartridges.

Lots of shooters are obsessed with velocity. Nothing wrong with that. If Proof were to cease barrel sales to velocity obsessed shooters, there would be a notable reduction in sales. No way does Proof want to discourage, or cease, barrel sales to velocity obsessed shooters.

Proof management no doubt has an explanation for their decision. They also have the right to keep that explanation to themselves.

 

[LongRange338]

"But I believe the larger issue is a group of buyers who are overly fixated on velocity at all costs."

So is there also an issue with the Weatherby crowd? Maybe the 6.5 SAUM or 7 SAUM shooters? I think you misunderstand the concept of the Sherman cartridge. You certainly misunderstand the people. The majority of the Sherman shooters look at the efficiency in the cartridge. Especially the efficiency to run a true short action in the SS line to compete with the larger powder draining magnums.

"Most are new reloaders and have no previous experience with wildcats."
Where exactly are you getting your information from??? You say you don't own a Sherman so I assume you don't follow the Sherman crowd.

Shermans are a wildcat cartridge. As such, they take more experience and knowledge to reload. This is not any different than any other wildcat cartridge. When I started shooting 6GT, I didn't even have the brass to shoot without forming it. I formed brass off of a chamber print, however, I've been handloading for some time now. I don't think I'd advise anyone new to reloading to jump into a wildcat of any kind.

Proof has already admitted to Rich that they have some issues they are working through and here you are placing blame on the shooters with inaccurate statements and unsupported opinions. I do not think it's to much to ask for a company to be held accountable for their products.

You assume very much but are not reading my post, at a minimum trying to force my words out of context. I am a lifelong shooter and reloader, I shoot to a mile and enjoy it very, very much. I enjoy the shooting community at large and share as much experience as I can...

Anybody using a Weatherby cartridge, 6.5 or 7 SAUM, or other SAAMI standardized cartridge has a LOT more guidance and reliable reloading data available to them. Of course these cartridges are chosen for their performance within their respective action sizes. The Sherman cartridges are doing the same thing and I don't have ANY problem with the cartridge or design. The performance of the Sherman mags is nothing short of spectacular and I don't begrudge an educated individual for taking advantage.

I do follow the Sherman crowd online and am very much aware of the performance gained, just as with the Ackley Improved cartridges. The concept of wildcats is nothing new and has always been to gain a performance edge...

I am not speaking of an online group of people I am associated with, I am speaking of several people that I converse with in the real world face to face who are of the habit of touting their Sherman mags and velocities. I can tell you that I speak out of concern for their well being as it is good for nobody that a fellow shooter is injured after pushing their system (action, barrel, bullets, primers, brass) beyond its safe performance levels. The internet is very good at showing the shiny new extreme speed cartridge, but it is not very good at sharing that same information with a healthy dose of caution.

Couple the above newfound excitement of a shooter with the tight bore of the Proof and now you have a frustrated shooter reading online that his performance is subpar without the experience or judgement to know when to step away and look for sage advice. Frankly the loads posted on forums and social media are often times dangerous and obviously over pressure. The perfect storm of inexperienced reloaders with a shortage of components and an overeager fountain of information from varying degrees of knowledge is a situation I am seeing more and more of.

Now add in the liability that Proof is going to incur if they don't take a step back. My guess is that they are well aware that a great many of the issues related to the Sherman Magnum chamberings is not an issue with the barrel, chambering, or brass but a problem of PRESSURES. Pressures exacerbated by the perfect storm I mentioned above, but they are most likely only hearing about it from ONE SPECIFIC GROUP. Therfore it is my hypothesis that the group has a very large percentage of new reloaders who are very excited to experience the performance levels but don't know when to stop.

My thoughts are not a condemnation of the Sherman Mags, nor of Proof. My sense is telling me it is a situation of unrealistic expectations coupled with quality control issues.

 

[LongRange338]

Longrange338:

I think I follow...

I own a couple 30 SMs. When I develop loads for them, I do it no differently than I do for any of the other cartridge chamberings in my other rifles. Whether they be SAAMI adopted chamberings, or wildcat chamberings.

My 30 SM hunting loads probably operate at higher pressure than the maximum loads listed on Hodgdon's website for the cartridges they do list load data for. I consider my 30 SM cartridges safe, when fired in my rifles.

Likewise, I don't strictly limit my maximum powder charges to those maximums listed on Hodgdon's load data website for the SAAMI cartridges I load for. I develop maximum loads based on primer pocket life, case head ejector marks, bolt lift resistance, measured case head expansion, and fired primer appearance. Those maximum loads are developed no differently than for my Sherman cartridges.

My understanding is the majority of experienced reloaders on this Forum observe the same indicators of pressure when developing acceptable "maximum" powder charges (pressures) for their individual rifles.

Any reloader can blow themselves and their rifles up, no matter the cartridge chambering, if they work at. A fellow reloader I knew from high school welded his Remington 700 bolt to the action, in spite of having reloading manuals, and their prescribed maximum powder charges available. His Rem was chambered in .243 Winchester. He presumed gun powders were substitutable. He substituted whatever powder he had available, at the charge weight shown in his reloading manual.

Some folk would no doubt be better served shooting factory ammo. On the other hand, even factory ammo has been manufactured and retail sold over-pressured. And damaged rifles. Has happened in the past. Will happen again in the future.

Proof has no way of knowing what cartridge their barrels will be chambered for, once they've been shipped out for retail sale. Sherman cartridges, SAAMI adopted cartridges, or any other imaginable wildcat cartridge. This is true no matter the nature of their relationship with elkaholic, or their opinion of Sherman cartridges.

Lots of shooters are obsessed with velocity. Nothing wrong with that. If Proof were to cease barrel sales to velocity obsessed shooters, there would be a notable reduction in sales. No way does Proof want to discourage, or cease, barrel sales to velocity obsessed shooters.

Proof management no doubt has an explanation for their decision. They also have the right to keep that explanation to themselves.

I see you posted while I was carefully considering my response. We are in total agreement, I feel that the many who would be better served shooting factory ammo are making the situation much more difficult for all involved - especially Mr. Sherman and Proof.

 

[Pdvdh]

The same concepts that worked for Gibbs and Ackley work for Sherman, I know it chaffs you hard but they'll out live both of us and guys will be building them far into the future.

Yup, and some will be chambered in, and built with, Proof barrels. For however long Proof barrels are available for purchase.

And I just remembered... one of my 30 SMs is chambered in a Proof CFW barrel

 

[adam32+P]

You still seem to forget or just don't care there has been some pressure testing, the fact is it's boring because you quickly find out pressure is pressure and what pressure shows on the parent case shows on the wildcat, can you mask some of them sure but you can not magically make them go away. The same concepts that worked for Gibbs and Ackley work for Sherman, I know it chaffs you hard but they'll out live both of us and guys will be building them far into the future.

No testing has ever been posted here.

You were on hiatus when there were two giant threads here last year. Rich himself said testing will be done when and if he feels like it and would not cite any actual numbers.

Every time someone says they only get 2-3 firings per case or can't reach claimed velocity it is always an issue with their barrel (hence this entire thread), or a bad batch of powder, or a bad chambering job, or soft brass...etc etc etc.

 

[muzzletalk]

So it's not too much to ask for Sherman shooters to hold Proof accountable and publicly flame them? But then everyone else that asks Sherman shooters for real pressure data to support their wildly high velocity claims is too much to ask?

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

This entire thread is against forum rules as it is.

The original post wasn't about flaming Proof. It was about the inability of the cartridge designer to have continued support with a barrel where he himself is not able to obtain support from the manufacturer. I cannot speak for everyone else that has provided an opinion about their experience with Proof regardless of it being a Sherman or not. Not one person here (that I've read) has said Proof is a crap company because they're not.

Proof has all the data you are requesting. They have the equipment and the expertise to analyze it. They built a Sherman, shot the rifle. So no it certainly isn't too much for anyone to ask Sherman shooters for the data. I'm sure many people would be willing to submit their rifles for testing if it would resolve an issue with a good company. However, I don't think that option is on the table.

The correct proverb is "You can't have your cake and eat it too" and It doesn't apply here. Nobody is asking for something that shouldn't already be there. Proof has already acknowledged that they have some issues they're working on according to the OP.

I had a Bartlein barrel I wanted to have checked as my smith said the OD was fairly out. I wasn't overly concerned with the OD of the barrel being out because it was carbon fiber and I don't expect it to be as tolerant as steel. I was however concerned that maybe the internal was out also. I had a good conversation with them and sent them the barrel. A few days after Bartlein receving the barrel, I received a call. They provided me the measured specs (acceptable tolerances) of the barrel, advised that they will ship the barrel back. They also included a box of ammunition that they have known results from in their barrels. They also advised that if I had ANY issues with the barrel, I was to call them, and they would chamber a new barrel for me. This is way more than I was asking for. This is a prime example of how you provide exceptional customer service.

The moral of my story is simple. You do not demoralize a customer for choosing a round of their liking just because it doesn't work well with your bullet. You take care of them. Some people save for months or years to buy parts for their dream hunting rig. Money doesn't come as easy to some people and that is a consideration that should be taken into account.

 

[bigngreen]

No testing has ever been posted here.

You were on hiatus when there were two giant threads here last year. Rich himself said testing will be done when and if he feels like it and would not cite any actual numbers.

Every time someone says they only get 2-3 firings per case or can't reach claimed velocity it is always an issue with their barrel (hence this entire thread), or a bad batch of powder, or a bad chambering job, or soft brass...etc etc etc.

Yes it has, I posted it years ago on the number 2 6.5 Sherman built, before Sherman Wildcats was even a thing, with multiple powders and pressure traces showing how the time under the curve changes velocity while at the same pressures. And showing pressure signs showing up on the Sherman brass right where it should in that case 65k. Another guy has done pressure testing, I know he had some posts but I don't know where they all went cause I didn't follow for long since it was not this site.
I have the first 6.5 SS, I just threw out the original brass so I can restart with ADG brass, it had 20 firings on it. Rebarreled the #2 6.5 Sherman a few years ago with a different barrel maker and it shoots right with the first, just not a big deal.
The biggest issues I've seen in pressure spikes had been tight bored OR soft bores, powder lot changes the biggest I saw was years ago on H1000 but it didn't have to drop 4-5 grains but a couple on a big case like that.

 

[MallardAddict]

I thought threads aren't supposed to be started strictly to bash a company?

Odd how that only applies to certain people or topics here. Only one side of this story is out yet the dog pile is in full force……

So it's not too much to ask for Sherman shooters to hold Proof accountable and publicly flame them? But then everyone else that asks Sherman shooters for real pressure data to support their wildly high velocity claims is too much to ask?
This entire thread is against forum rules as it is.

Now add in the liability that Proof is going to incur if they don't take a step back. My guess is that they are well aware that a great many of the issues related to the Sherman Magnum chamberings is not an issue with the barrel, chambering, or brass but a problem of PRESSURES. Pressures exacerbated by the perfect storm I mentioned above, but they are most likely only hearing about it from ONE SPECIFIC GROUP. Therfore it is my hypothesis that the group has a very large percentage of new reloaders who are very excited to experience the performance levels but don't know when to stop.

Safe to assume Proof has pressure testing software and very likely knows the pressures that some of the posted Shermans loads run and may have just opted not to get involved.

I've had no less then 12 proof barreled rifles and currently have 5 and the only proofs that didn't make normally posted speeds for me where 2 Shermans (6.5, .30SM) that were built by nationally known smiths. Also had a 7 SS on a steel barrel (Bartlein) and it too fell short of the velocities posted here by almost 200fps before pressuring up (pressure trace was used by second smith). Before anyone asks me to name the smith, I will only say it was built by a smith who posts here. I won't name him as I don't think his work was the issue.

Only thing we know for sure is that Proof hasn't commented here so it's all guesses.

 

[Rocketeer77]

I'm no barrel maker but if a run of barrels is being made on the same machine, with the same material, how can some be "tight"?

You're not a machinist, nothing's ever exactly the same. We just assume it is, tooling wears out, steel supplier alters the material specifications, machinery is out of wack etc.
I have a 6.5 PRC Howa that most certainly has a tight bore, pressure signs with lighter loads, velocities low end etc. It shoots fine but not to specifications

 

[nksmfamjp]

You'll see gunsmiths really get opinions on barrels fast since it's standard if you can get the barrel company to replace a bum barrel they never cover chambering and most smiths I know end up eating the chamber job to keep the customer happy. There are a couple very good manufactured if you have an issue but only a couple.
If you slug a barrel before installing it will give you some idea to the QC but it could shoot like a house a fire or a total turd in or out of spec but once tooling touches steel your done stacking the card in your favor and just have to shoot!

This post says a lot with a little. Basically, you can chamber a crap barrel and sometimes it will shoot, sometimes it will crap out at low charge weights. Trouble is, even if they replace the barrel, what about time chambering, time figuring it out, customer frustration, customer losing confidence in gunsmith….Is Proof paying for that? They are cut rifled barrels, from premium blanks, they control the heat treat and they have opportunity to measure each one. Really, they have no excuse.

I have a Proof on a 6.5 CM and a 300 PRC. Both pressure up really quick.

…dang, not even a Sherman….

Its plain as day that the barrels are tight. Its also plain as day that the Sherman Mag fanatics are well versed and obsessed with velocity. The advent of the cheap chronograph and barrel scope has to be the bane of any barrel makers existence.... What is happening here is that many are having Sherman Magnum rifles built because of the desire for performance and the expectation that they are ALWAYS going to get the maximum velocities out of their barrels.

I struggle with this statement a lot. I want velocity, but mostly I want velocity margin. I want my velocity target to be hit with even lower range loads. For example, I had Berger 180 eh's going 3050fps in 300 Sherman. I didn't like the performance on game or target. Switched to 178 ELD-X's. Bullet shape is limiting me to 2950fps. 3000fps is the goal, but the Hornady bullets pressure up quick. If I were running ol' iron sides, the 30-06, what would I see…2650fps. I can be happy at 2950, even if not a record!

So with proof being found from some vendors at just a bit over $800... I wouldn't call them expensive compared to their competitors. Considering Bartlein, Benchmark, and others will be well over $1050... this means at most, proof is in the middle of the road on price. Anyone calling them expensive, is probably not experienced in the higher end. My calling them cheap was clearly not right either, which makes sense because we deal with the high end, not the low end.

Honestly, that says it all.

What I'm trying to say is that Proof does have a problem with tight bores (and the issues that go along with it). But I believe the larger issue is a group of buyers who are overly fixated on velocity at all costs. I don't run a Sherman myself so I don't have first hand experience but have 3 or 4 fellow shooters who rave about them. I absolutely guarantee they are running overpressure for the velocities they are stating their rigs produce. Most are new reloaders and have no previous experience with wildcats. With no standardized load data and no way to check pressures, the internet is the Wild Wild West for anybody foolish enough to not double check their data.
Proof appears to have decided that trying to please the velocity obsessed crowd is not worth the effort. Were I in their shoes I might feel the same.

Is that really blame the buyer without evidence or experience? Just asking. I own 2 Shermans. I'm sure I don't hit some peoples' velocity claims, but I get solid performance from good loads made through standardized loading technique that can be used with or without a manual. Quickload helps.

Proof has already admitted to Rich that they have some issues they are working through and here you are placing blame on the shooters with inaccurate statements and unsupported opinions. I do not think it's to much to ask for a company to be held accountable for their products.

Thanks. I vote with my $$. So far, I own 2 Shermans and 0 Proofs.

 

[L.Sherm]

, they control the heat treat

Are you sure about that, the cut versus button argument is cut rifles dont induce stress so no need to stress relieve except after the bar stock is made.
At one time Kreiger supposedly just cyroed there barrels after cut rifling

 

[nksmfamjp]

Are you sure about that, the cut versus button argument is cut rifles dont induce stress so no need to stress relieve except after the bar stock is made.
At one time Kreiger supposedly just cyroed there barrels after cut rifling

I don't mean after….I don't make barrels, but to cut(or form) something precisely, you have to control the stock coming to you at a high level. My understanding is that barrel makers get standard bar stock because their orders are too small(read they order less than a train rail car at a time) to dictate an exact spec. So they heat treat in house or somebody stress relieves their blanks. Then they cut. That is how they get tolerances in the 0.000x range.