Picking the right copper bullet for a .308 Winchester rifle

[Technologist]

Hello,

I'd like some help from the ballistics hivemind. What copper bullet to load up in my .308?

I'm running out of hunting bullets, and I'm thinking I should try lead free for the next batch. The problem is that I can't really figure out the perfect balance between velocity and sectional density.

I've been using 168 grains Hornady Interbonds and Interlocks for years, switching to the bonded bullets for tougher stuff. This summer I shot a small Eland cow at a little over 200 meters with one of the interbond bullets. I recovered part of the bullet in the ribs on the exit side. It had broken up, but effect on target was satisfying.

Now, if I was to try out the Barnes bullets (or Hornady GMX if you'd recommend it), I'm not sure that I'd want to go with one of equal weight. From what I've heard, the TSX and TTSX bullets need some velocity to expand. At 300 yards, which is not an unrealistic range, my future bullet should expand.

This leads me to the 150 grain bullet. Isn't that a bit light though? At what distance would you be comfortable shooting an elk or larger deer with a 150 or 168 grain copper bullet out of a .308 Winchester?

Should I just give up the copper bullets and continue slinging lead?

 

[pods8]

I'm giving the lead free on game a go myself and so far I'm happy. My thought was to try them out and if I got good accuracy move on to hunting with them, if I got good terminal performance then keep on going!

That said I went barnes TTSX/LRX in my calibers because from all reports they've got the lowest minimum expansion velocities (1800/1600fps advertised respectively). That said expansion photo's I've seen show ~2200fps is where you get mostly complete expansion (from there they just appear to peel down the shank more). The Hornady GMX and Nosler E-tip worried me in that the harder allow looked to take a bit more FPS to similarly expand.

I got good accuracy out of the 145LRX in my 7-08 and 168TTSX in my 30-06. The 145gr LRX for me was a MV of 2700fps and I hit an antelope at 350yd with it (should have been ~2200fps) just behind the shoulder on the way in and through the opposite shoulder on the way out, seemed to leave a 1.5" hole exiting, DRT.

A hunting partner also shoots the 168gr TTSX in his 30-06, he sent one through a quartering away deer (entered behind the shoulder and punched out the chest, ~2" exit, DRT) and also a low shot on a cow elk that spoke a lot to the bullet ability on that bad shot (through the knee, cut a 3/4" slice straight across the brisket, through the opposite knee. It dropped down and a followup through the neck ended it.)


So run the ballistics for your situation/ranges, if the 168gr TTSX fits the bill I'd use it, if not drop down to 150.

 

[Technologist]

Thank you for your input!

I had not seen the 1800 fps figure before. I thought the treshold was higher, but only because of forum google hearsay. Is this number from Barnes?

If I can get the 168 TTSX to about 2650 feet then I'm well above 1800 fps far beyond 300 meters.

2650 fps from a 22" barrel does seem very doable to me. Am I right? I think I'm going to ask Santa for a chrono.

 

[pods8]

The TSX has a higher expansion velocity, I want to say 2100fps is the number they qoute. I emailed barnes and they confirmed the 1800/1600 for the TTSX/LRX that I'd seen mentioned of forums, etc.

Somewhere I've seen a similar picture to the below with the TTSX expanding and I want to say it looked like the 2100fps picture below at 1800fps. I liked how it looked more so at 2200fps type range so I've generally wanted to try to stay above that velocity. Obviously a spine shot or other well placed shot will do the trick at a slower velocity but I wouldn't want to solely rely on it.

I don't load for 308win so I can't comment there. I get 2800fps from my 22" 30-06 with the 168gr TTSX if that helps you at all.

Edit: Actually here's their more detailed load data for 308, looks like out of a 24" with some powders they are going 2700-2750 so 2650fps could be do able. https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/308-Win-load-data.pdf

You'd likely be in good shape out to 300yd with a 2650MV, though still take a look at the 150s too.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Barnes tech support told me 1600'sec on water jugs for the LRX. Flesh should aid in expansion. I've never tried to confirm that.

If I were faced with using an all copper bullet, I'd try the 175 LRX. 175s can be pushed pretty fast in a 308 provided there is adequate barrel length. 2700-2800 is doable with 26" tubes. 2700-2750 with VARGET type powders and 2800+ with slower and double base powders such as N540, N550 or RL17. They have a reasonable BC and a reasonable expansion threshold.

With my past experiences with Barnes and at elk altitude, I wouldn't think twice or hesitate for a second taking an elk at 600 yards and even beyond. At 2750'sec MV you'd retain over 1500 pounds of energy at the 600 yard mark and have over 1900'sec retained velocity at 6000' elevation.

Just my .02

 

[pods8]

If I were faced with using an all copper bullet, I'd try the 175 LRX. 175s can be pushed pretty fast in a 308 provided there is adequate barrel length. 2700-2800 is doable with 26" tubes. 2700-2750 with VARGET type powders and 2800+ with slower and double base powders such as N540, N550 or RL17. They have a reasonable BC and a reasonable expansion threshold.

Maybe I'm just using too fast a powder but those numbers seem optimistic in a 308 even when accounting for 4" less barrel. For the 168gr TTSX I'm running 56.5gr IMR4350, RP brass and WLRM primers, getting ~2800fps from my 22" 30-06. When I was running a charge ladder I went up towards 57.5+grs and was getting into the upper 2800s but the primers were flowing quite a bit.

(Does the 175LRX have less bearing surface than the 168TTSX now that I think about it?)

 

[Michael Eichele]

Getting 2800'sec in a 26" 308 barrel really only happens with the double base powders and is pretty normal and within safe pressures. Getting 2750 with 185s is even within SAMMI spec pressure using RL17.

2750 with 175 class bullet and RL15, varget type burn rates is doable albeit they are top end loads.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

I've been working with the 175 LRX in my 300Wby.

Like it.
The Wby likes it.
.150 ish off.
.966 projectile protrusion.
The BC seems to be correct.

If you can deal with a .308 Winchester with a COAL near 2.98 to expose the first groove, maybe even as long as 3.090 and then find accuracy at a velocity near 2650 or higher then you should be good as far out as 500meters.

The TTSX in 150, 165 or 168 with at least the first groove exposed would be on my goto list. Oh wait, they are but like another post, in the 30-06 since the 308 became something else.

 

[idaho elk hunter]

Cfe 223, LRX 168 and pull the trigger.

 

[valleyloader]

Don't be afraid of the Barnes TTSX I have been using them exclusively on whitetails in PA since they were first released. I load them in 243, 30-06, 280, and 300WM and Performance has been excellent from 25 to 500 yards I have always had great expansion, if the deer didn't drop right there they only went a few yards before expiring even with less than desirable shot placement. At 500 yards the 243 is traveling at 1850 Fps, although I didn't recover the bullet the exit wound was about 1.5" after going through the ribs which tells me the bullet performed as desired. I did recover a bullet from both the 280 and 30-06 which were fired at deer directly facing me the bullets entered through the brisket and were resting on the femur. Both bullets looked like the Barnes advertisements.

 

[Technologist]

What were the impact velocities or distances of those .280 and .30-06 shots, valleyloader?

Also, apart from the length and the BC, the 165 and the 168 TTSX are the same, right?

 

[pods8]

Ogive are different. Terminal performance should be similar if that is your question.

 

[HarryN]

The 308 has a tendency to be less stable than people think, especially at point of entry in a standard twist barrel. The reason is that it was designed that way so that a solid military bullet would tumble to cause damage since expanding bullets are not allowed.

From what I can tell, a good way to visualize copper bullet use is to imagine them as "one caliber smaller", so your 308 will behave more like a 7mm-308 or 243.

Using GS Custom's offering and charts as an indication, a suggestion would be the 308130HV080. Yes, 130 grain.

The listed standard twist for a 308 is only 1 twist in 12, so unless you use a non expanding solid, 150 grains seems very optimistic, which is typical of Barnes marketing strategy. I don't have any skin in the game, but I will admit to being a bit pro- GS Custom and less so thrilled with Barnes. Not entirely sure why, but it is true.

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Load Data for HV Bullets

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Specifications for use

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Load Guide for HV, FN and SP Bullets

Combined with about 40 grains of Norma 202 it should be pushing close to 3000 fps in a full length barrel.

I have not tried this combination, but this is what the charts I am seeing indicate. Of course experience is better than charts.

 

[HarryN]

I might be way out of line here, but if I were going to use copper bullets on an elk, I would probably use a .375 of some kind. A deer doesn't represent any kind of real personal risk to the hunter, but an elk does. Also in the US, places with elk often have bears. The elk I have seen in Oregon and Washington were pretty dang big.