New rifle with a few questions

Doom2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
66
Location
South of the Mason Dixon Line
I was curious, especially if you were using a bipod. Your observation on vertical jump vs horizontal mirrors my experience.

The tendency to jump to the side is caused by unequal pressure on the side of the rifle. Pay attention to pulling the rifle straight back into you shoulder pocket without putting pressure on the side, unless you are using two hands on the stock. Even then minimize any side pressure.

Also, make sure the swivels are not hanging up on the bags/rests during recoil.

You asked about the copper near the muzzle. It sounds as if this barrel is pretty rough. When you remove copper you need to get copper off the high spots. That is the copper that hurts accuracy. Any copper in the pits is pretty much inconsequential in terms of accuracy. Don’t kill yourself trying to get every trace of copper out of the barrel at this point. You may need more rounds through this rifle for it to settle in. Buy some 150gr fmj rounds to shoot with until the rifle settles in.

Your expectation of sub MOA with factory hunting ammo is probably unrealistic. I would think you should expect something more in the 1 to 1.5 MOA.

Most of all, good luck.
 
Last edited:

Tac-O

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
562
Location
Utah
I was curious, especially if you were using a bipod. Your observation on vertical jump vs horizontal mirrors my experience.

The tendency to jump to the side is caused by unequal pressure on the side of the rifle. Pay attention to pulling the rifle straight back into you shoulder pocket without putting pressure on the side, unless you are using two hands on the stock. Even then minimize any side pressure.

Also, make sure the swivels are not hanging up on the bags/rests during recoil.

You asked about the copper near the muzzle. It sounds as if this barrel is pretty rough. When you remove copper you need to get copper off the high spots. That is the copper that hurts accuracy. Any copper in the pits is pretty much inconsequential in terms of accuracy. Don’t kill yourself trying to get every trace of copper out of the barrel at this point. You may need more rounds through this rifle for it to settle in. Buy some 150gr fmj rounds to shoot with until the rifle settles in.

Your expectation of sub MOA with factory hunting ammo is probably unrealistic. I would think you should expect something more in the 1 to 1.5 MOA.

Most of all, good luck.


Thanks, doom.

After shooting it a bit more and doing some more reading on the matter, I had reset my goals to be capable of taking an animal at 400 yards with my current barrel. Then if I feel the need to better that, I'll look into getting another barrel and possibly loading my own.
 

Tac-O

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
562
Location
Utah
Ref the target you posted....did you use the same aiming point for all those shots?
haha yes... I was aiming dead center for all of them. Those were all the first rounds I'd put threw that new gun, and I didn't clean with a copper cleaner between shots. I was just using hoppes 9.

Here's my target from today:

I was aiming at the furthest right large circle. My last few were rushed and were all the furthest left. My gun kept jumping left when I shot, so I assume the furthest left are just from being poorly executed. I was shooting Hornady Precision Hunter.

It's getting better, so I believe it's a mix of the barrel getting a bit more broken in and me getting a bit better at shooting a .30 06. It does have a rough barrel, but for a super budget gun, the trigger is pretty **** light and crisp!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20190614_181556879.jpg
    IMG_20190614_181556879.jpg
    403.8 KB · Views: 32

spud06

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
22
OK, kind of an odd looking group, but better. Also, suggest you use the same hold every time. Changing where you put your non-trigger hand can change POI. You really should have someone else shoot it to see a baseline. You need to know. If no-one can shoot it any better, I would get rid of it. I would be reluctant to shoot past 150 yards with a 3 MOA gun. Any used gun at a pawn shop could probably do that. I wouldn't waste another round until I found someone else to shoot it. Considering you are working on your own shooting skills, doing so with a inaccurate rifle will be time-consuming, expensive, and frustrating. How will you know when your skills match the accuracy of the rifle?
 

spud06

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
22
Also, no guarantee that scope is perfect either. It could be a bad one and if you keep doing the same thing, you'll never know it, unless you mount another known good scope. Another reason to have someone else shoot it.
 

spud06

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
22
Not ragging on you...just trying to help. I'm no expert shot, but I hunt with a 375 Ruger and my groups are easily under an inch at 100 yds. But I reload and they are not full house Cape Buffalo loads. But they kick more that that 06.
 

Alibiiv

Well-Known Member
LRH Team Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2013
Messages
1,353
Location
Rhode Island
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions!

I went ahead and pillar and glass bedded the stock (since I wanted to do this anyway), got a SIMS recoil pad and have practiced shooting a bit. I now have 100-120 rounds through the barrel.

My shooting ability is definitely a big part of the inaccuracy here! This being my first large caliber rifle, it's really surprising how much the recoil affects my accuracy. Comparing it to a 12gauge slug gun isn't really much of a comparison, especially when my slug gun is a remington 1100 which is pretty good at recoil reduction.

My plan is to continue practicing with cheaper ammo that seems to group well, either have the scope mounts checked or do that myself, and in the end look into reloading.

One thing I've noticed is that my barrel copper fouls extremely easily, with a good amount at the muzzle. I've been wondering if this is really throwing my accuracy after a minimal number of shots. I'll clean all the copper out, shooting 1 fouling shot, and then my first actual shot seems to usually be within 1/2" of where I'm aiming. The third shot generally seems to be several inches off.

Hopefully I can find someone that is an experienced LR shooter (I don't know anyone that rifle hunts or shoots LR as a hobby) to really check my gun and my own ability. If a proven shooter can shoot it accurately, then I may look into getting a criterion barrel for it. It will at least then be easier to clean and I'll have to ignore the fact that I spent about the same price on a barrel as I did my gun :/

Just a suggestion, if you Think that you are flinching. If you would like to find out if you are flinching and you have someone who you can go to the range with you to randomly LOAD your rifle, on round at a time, while you are looking away so you do not know whether the rifle is going to go off, OR NOT you ought to be able to determine if you are flinching or not. By not knowing if the rifle is going to shoot or not, when it doesn't go off, you in all likelihood will see the muzzle of your barrel move downward/flinching. I have done this many times training new recruits teaching them how to pistol shoot, it works! If you find a flinch, from what you have posted here I suspect that you are, it would be good to find a gun club/shooting club in your area and try to find a mentor to help you overcome your flinch. From what I have seen of the photos that you have posted and what you have written, I suspect that you have a serious flinch, or you have a scope/mount failure. I think that there is a gun shop, The Armory, in your area, they ought to be able to help find someone who could give you some direction. I belong to a relatively small gun club, if you went to out club house during the day looking for someone to help you out, you would get steared in the right direction with the right person to help you. What Spud06 suggested, to me, is spot on.
 
Last edited:

Tac-O

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
562
Location
Utah
Not ragging on you...just trying to help. I'm no expert shot, but I hunt with a 375 Ruger and my groups are easily under an inch at 100 yds. But I reload and they are not full house Cape Buffalo loads. But they kick more that that 06.

No worries! I appreciate the help! I definitely plan to find someone to shoot it soon. I was going to ask someone at the range today but got there late and didn't have enough time to ask around.
 

snox801

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2012
Messages
3,442
Location
Spring Lake Michigan
Welcome. You are on your way. Groups look very similar to guys that are new I have at my range. These guys have you covered. Just keep trying different ammo. I’ve had some Tigard go from 4” to 1.25” with just finding the right ammo. Most of the time it’s not what the shooter wants. Lol
Also get some boretech eliminator. That stuff is the best for removing copper and won’t harm barrel if left in. Also a short term rust prevention. Keep that note snake for hunting. I used all the right stuff at home but a always carry one while hunting. I can run it through after travel and make sure barrel is clear. Then at the end of the hunt I oil it up and run it through again. Mainly because going from Michigan to Florida or Texas in the winter causes issues. One year everyone showed up with moisture on the rifles from being frozen then in hot and humid. Makes me feel good knowing my bore won’t have issues.
 

Daves762

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
383
Location
In a Free State
Hello everyone!

Im new to the forum, as well as centerfire rifle shooting. I grew up in illinois hunting whitetail, so of course Im only knowledgeable of hunting with a bow, slug gun, and a 22. I moved to Utah a few years ago and and decided I need to have the option of shooting long range, so 30 06 is my choice!!

I picked up a 30 06 remington 783 with the Walnut stock because I'm on a budget and apparently the 783 is capable of sub MOA. I decided the Walnut might be a better choice than synthetic because I like wood and the synthetic stock on these is apparently a bit flimsy, which I assumed would hinder accuracy compred to the walnut. After taking it apart though, I noticed that the stock isn't pillar bedded the same way that the synthetic stock is. The synthetic version has the aluminum pillar in front of the magazine in the stock and my walnut stock only has a hole through it for the bolt.

I went out to sight it in today and had pretty poor results. My shots were all over the place on a 12x12 paper and didn't shoot any kind of group! I shot 10 rounds of Winchester silver ballistic tip 180g and 10 of Hornady 180g sst, thinking that heavier would be better for preventing wind drift. I also thought I should zero it with what I would want to hung with, but maybe I should have went with Remington core lokt since it's cheaper and I need to be able to shoot a group first! I also backed out the trigger pull adjust as much as possible, so it should be around 2.5 lbs. I had a Vortex Viper 4-16x50 mounted on it with Warne rings.


To start, I ran a bore snake through a couple of times with hoppes 9 then attempted t "break in" the barrel, shooting one round then running the snake through with solvent between each shot for 5 rounds. Then I added mpro7 copper remover to the snake and ran that through every 3 shots for about 9 rounds, then did the last 6 rounds back to back. There was 5-10mph breeze and I was shooting 100 yards.

After my total of 20 rounds, I cleaned with hoppes soaked patches on a jag, a nylon brush, and then dry patched until it looked pretty clean. I did the same with the mpro7 copper remover, but I did a fair bit of alternating the solvent and copper remover and let the copper remover sit for 10 minutes before brushing and dry patching. It took TONS of patches to get it "clean" and I still ended up with a bit of copper near the muzzle that didn't seem to want to come off.

I was always a pretty good shot with a 22 and slug gun (12 gauge 1.25 oz slug makes quite a kick) so I was really surprise to see how terrible my shots were with this gun. I was a bit suprised at how much recoil it has. But, I think my shots were decently executed.

My questions are:

Is it more likely that my shooting ability with a 30 caliber rifle is pretty poor or that I got a dud of a gun?

Should I continue to try to get the remaining copper out of the bore that's visible near the muzzle?

If I didn't "break in" the barrel properly (if you belive in that sort of thing), can any damage I did be remedied?

Should I bother with trying to bed the stock yet?

What should be my next steps to getting sub MOA?

FYI, my goal is to be able to harvest a deer/elk at 500-700 yards with this gun at some point.

Thanks!!
Is it more likely that my shooting ability with a 30 caliber rifle is pretty poor or that I got a dud of a gun?----- Centerfire rifle marksmanship is a learned skill. As in many rounds with good form to be good at it. Read up on all the human factors and speak them out loud if you have to while touching off a round. There is a reason why the range master in boot camp is screaming the fundamentals of shooting out loud as new recruits are firing their first live rounds down range. Practice the fundamentals and the skills will come with time and round count.

Should I continue to try to get the remaining copper out of the bore that's visible near the muzzle?---- I clean my rifles with either a bore snake or a one piece rod with the whole fancy getup. I never use a three piece steel rod that grandpa used. It will ruin the inside of your barrel faster then anything. Matter of fact I've had more rifles on my gunsmithing bench for work cause of improper cleaning attempts then all other factors combined. I clean the heck out of a bolt gun before I store it. But once I foul it and get it zeroed I don't clean it again until the seasons over with.

If I didn't "break in" the barrel properly (if you belive in that sort of thing), can any damage I did be remedied? As a machinist I personally believe "barrel break in" to be a few dozen rounds down the tube. Just to polish off any sharp edges on the chamber, lands and grooves. I personally believe the concoction of shoot clean shoot clean shoot clean is put out there by the guys selling the cleaning products. JMO relax fella's. Just fire a few boxes of ammo through a new rifle, while practicing the proper fundamentals of marksmanship before you start expecting tight groups.

Should I bother with trying to bed the stock yet? I would put a quality carbon fiber stock onto the rifle rather then try to glass bed a wood one. Unless you know what you are doing. Wood is old technology and is an organic material. It flexes, expands, swells, and contracts based on temp. humidity, and rain. Hunting rifles get wet, one way or another. Water, wood and accuracy are not friends.

What should be my next steps to getting sub MOA?---- Bubble level on the scope, cheek riser for proper cheek weld, and Start reloading. Trying to find a bullet, load, sub MOA combination by picking boxes of ammo off the shelf is like a dog chasing it's tail. You might get lucky, but reloading for a bolt gun is pretty easy especially with a 30 cal rifle. I learned with a Remington 308 bolt and loaded hornadys SST 150 grain (not a match bullet) and ended up with 3 rounds looking like a clover, all holes touching. So adjusting the powder charge is where matching the round to the rifles barrel whip happens. If you shoot a bow you know what "cant" does at range. A bubble level on a bow does the exact same thing on a rifle. It's worth the $30.00. And cheek weld, especially from prone, does not exist with a sporter stock. If your cheek bone is not mashed onto the stock, your face is floating around behind the crosshairs. Cheek riser, bubble level, and hand loads. Those three will shrink your groups pretty quick.

Just my opinion and experience. There are smarter guys out there so take in all opinions and make the best choice for you based on time, money, patients, and complicated recommendations. Which you are sure to get. I like solving problems and like turning regular rifles into accurate long range ones.
 

Bang4theBuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
446
Admittedly, I didn't read everyone's response, so some of this might be redundant. I completely understand your need to stay on a budget. That can present a bunch of challenges when chasing accuracy. However, being new to shooting centerfire rifles is something that can be overcome, fairly easily. I noticed that the OP reached out for some help, in his area. That is the smartest/cheapest thing you can do. Factory ammo and range fees can add up quickly. If I were starting out again, I would definitely be looking for a friend that would be willing to help me develop my own loads for the rifle. I do it for friends that are new to shooting all of the time. We start out with properly cleaning their rifle, and disassembly of the scope/rings/mounts, so that we can be sure that they are back on the rifle correctly. We go to the range with 2 boxes of ammo that have decent brass, and work on shooting technique. It is not uncommon to cut group sizes in half on the first trip, and we generated brass for reloading that is fire-formed to your chamber. I have them go buy their own dies (anywhere from $40 to $400), and usually their own components, and I coach them through developing a load. The cost of the dies is often offset in the next two range sessions, so it really doesn't matter if they don't intend to take up reloading right away. The other thing that is huge to me is taking good notes. and I don't mean only after the first range session. Make notes about everything that went well, what didn't go well, what the weather was, how comfortable were you on the bench, did you have a 338 with a tank brake next to you? You can always discard this info later if it turns out to be worthless, but more often than not, I go back and reference this information at some point. Even if it is only to prove to a perspective buyer that you have good documentation of the round count on your rifle if you decide to sell it at tome point in the future. All the other stuff about about bedding is also 100% relevant, and accurate, I just didn't cover that as everyone else did. Good Luck. PM me, if you have any questions.
 

Primary

LRH Assistant
Here are some related products that LRH members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to LRH’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to LRH discussions about these products.

 
 
Top