New rifle with a few questions

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by Ryan Tockstein, Apr 28, 2019.


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  1. Ryan Tockstein

    Ryan Tockstein Member

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    Apr 28, 2019
    Hello everyone!

    Im new to the forum, as well as centerfire rifle shooting. I grew up in illinois hunting whitetail, so of course Im only knowledgeable of hunting with a bow, slug gun, and a 22. I moved to Utah a few years ago and and decided I need to have the option of shooting long range, so 30 06 is my choice!!

    I picked up a 30 06 remington 783 with the Walnut stock because I'm on a budget and apparently the 783 is capable of sub MOA. I decided the Walnut might be a better choice than synthetic because I like wood and the synthetic stock on these is apparently a bit flimsy, which I assumed would hinder accuracy compred to the walnut. After taking it apart though, I noticed that the stock isn't pillar bedded the same way that the synthetic stock is. The synthetic version has the aluminum pillar in front of the magazine in the stock and my walnut stock only has a hole through it for the bolt.

    I went out to sight it in today and had pretty poor results. My shots were all over the place on a 12x12 paper and didn't shoot any kind of group! I shot 10 rounds of Winchester silver ballistic tip 180g and 10 of Hornady 180g sst, thinking that heavier would be better for preventing wind drift. I also thought I should zero it with what I would want to hung with, but maybe I should have went with Remington core lokt since it's cheaper and I need to be able to shoot a group first! I also backed out the trigger pull adjust as much as possible, so it should be around 2.5 lbs. I had a Vortex Viper 4-16x50 mounted on it with Warne rings.


    To start, I ran a bore snake through a couple of times with hoppes 9 then attempted t "break in" the barrel, shooting one round then running the snake through with solvent between each shot for 5 rounds. Then I added mpro7 copper remover to the snake and ran that through every 3 shots for about 9 rounds, then did the last 6 rounds back to back. There was 5-10mph breeze and I was shooting 100 yards.

    After my total of 20 rounds, I cleaned with hoppes soaked patches on a jag, a nylon brush, and then dry patched until it looked pretty clean. I did the same with the mpro7 copper remover, but I did a fair bit of alternating the solvent and copper remover and let the copper remover sit for 10 minutes before brushing and dry patching. It took TONS of patches to get it "clean" and I still ended up with a bit of copper near the muzzle that didn't seem to want to come off.

    I was always a pretty good shot with a 22 and slug gun (12 gauge 1.25 oz slug makes quite a kick) so I was really surprise to see how terrible my shots were with this gun. I was a bit suprised at how much recoil it has. But, I think my shots were decently executed.

    My questions are:

    Is it more likely that my shooting ability with a 30 caliber rifle is pretty poor or that I got a dud of a gun?

    Should I continue to try to get the remaining copper out of the bore that's visible near the muzzle?

    If I didn't "break in" the barrel properly (if you belive in that sort of thing), can any damage I did be remedied?

    Should I bother with trying to bed the stock yet?

    What should be my next steps to getting sub MOA?

    FYI, my goal is to be able to harvest a deer/elk at 500-700 yards with this gun at some point.

    Thanks!!
     

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  2. Rhett Crider

    Rhett Crider Well-Known Member

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    Go ahead and free float, bed, and pillar your stock now. It will only help. 2 1/2 lb trigger is fine. You've still got a ways to go on break-in and you've got a standard sporter barrel so your vibration node will be wider. Once it's broke in, you can start to find the the load to match your barrel length and speed. Back in the day, I had a M700 in 30-06 and found that Federal Premium ammo gave me the best groups. I would also put a good recoil pad on it too. 30-06 recoil should not be bad. I do not own any Vortex scopes so I will not comment on that, but you do need to make sure that it is mounted properly and leveled properly. Especially to attain your goal. For that set up, 400 yds is achievable in sub moa until you rebarrel to a 3B or 4 contour. And retrigger. My opinion only. There will be others :rolleyes:.
    My 30-06 is now a 300WM in said way. Nothing wrong with 30-06 though.

    Rhett
     
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  3. adk hunter

    adk hunter Well-Known Member

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    This reminded me of a Tennyson quote so many worlds, such things to be...anyway! My point being there are hundreds of ways this may go. I would try 5 different loads of factory stuff. LOTS of choices but keep in the back of your mind choose some that meet your final goal of long range or elk. I'll say NO to core locks! Yup blasphemy LOL. You can swear by them until you swear at them. I also would not use a bore snake on anything repeatedly...And bedding is always worth it. (done right) Finally X2 what Rhett said for reassembling, mounting and scope brands. Long range and budget rarely go together. On here men spend 3k plus on a scope alone and some put sub 1k rigs and ding steel like pros. Welcome aboard! Enjoy the info and GOOD LUCK!
     
  4. CVCOBRA1

    CVCOBRA1 Well-Known Member

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    The OP says its "capable" of sub MOA but does Rem guarantee sub MOA accuracy. There are too many other rifles out there that do. First, lose the bore snake. Get a bore guide and a good one piece cleaning rod with tips. Check scope screws and receiver screws. Don't want to knock your purchase but before you spend hundreds on ammo chasing a load that works, you might consider trading for an upgrade.
     
  5. Ryan Tockstein

    Ryan Tockstein Member

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    Apr 28, 2019
    Thanks for the thoughts!
    I was wondering about the bore snake. That's why I also purchased a one piece coated rod, a bore guide, nylon brush, and jag for cleaning. I just didn't use it mid shooting due to the bore snake being faster. If most people wouldn't recommend using it, illI stick to the rod! I did have the guy at Sportsman's Warehouse (where I purchased the rifle) mount and level the scope for me... He seemed to be pretty knowledgeable but of course there's no way of knowing that. Is there any shop you can recommend around the salt lake area that would check it for me for little or no charge?

    Of course remington doesn't guarantee that it will shoot sub MOA, but I havent seen anyone's reviews saying that wouldn't shoot any better than 3 moan at 100yd. I unfortunately can't spend any more on it, because I've already spent quite a bit on various pieces of gear for hunting in the mountains.

    Question on the free floating and bedding. The barrel is already free floated nearly 1/8" on each side... Does there need to be more room than that? Also, Remington sells it as a pillar bedded gun, so I'm not sure what alterations I would make there. Finally, do yall know anyone around salt lake area that wouldn't mind showing me how to bed the stock properly? I planned to watch videos and do a lot of reading, but I definitely do NOT want to screw that up. I attached a picture of the receiver and stock so yall can see what the "pillar bedding" looks like. I don't see any pillars, I only see the long bolts that go through the stock and thread to the receiver :/ Any idea where I can get some actual pillars for this gun?

    I plan on sticking with my gun and figuring how to make it work for me. Maybe it's silly to be proud of a $1000 rig, but I am and I (still) believe illI be able to get it singing at some point!
     

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    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  6. Rhett Crider

    Rhett Crider Well-Known Member

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    Not bedded. With the stock attached, you should be able to slide a dollar bill under the barrel from front to the back where the recoil lug is, to check barrel float. Proper torque on the stock is important also. Gunwerks has a 4 part video of making a LR rifle from a factory Remington Sendero you should watch. Midway-USA also has some videos for "do it yourselfers". As far as scope mounting, I would check w/ a local smith to see what they could check. There is a level that is just so-so that magnetically attaches inside your receiver to check it without removing the scope but not the best way. Now you've got to hope your rifle was built on Wednesday, not Monday or Friday. Always been the problem w/ mass production. Not trying to discourage you, but...……. long range accurate rifles come with a price. Even your shooting rests and methods. You are just getting started.
    Rhett
     
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  7. LVJ76

    LVJ76 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Ryan and welcome:

    First I would properly bed the rifle before I waste any more ammo. See the link below for details. You can also buy Nathan's Reloading and Long Range Hunting and Shooting books and learn tons. Good discount on the entire collection but if on a budget as you mentioned start with the bedding and go from there.
    https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/MatchGrade+Bedding+Compound+Instructions.html

    Practice, practice and more practice, a shotgun and a 30-06 rifle are not the same. Buy more factory ammo choices and break in the barrel, another 80 to 100 rounds will get it done. Use these 80 to 100 rounds mentioned above to get familiar and/or intimate with your rifle, get to know it and how it shoots, get to know the trigger and make adjustments if needed.

    On theae additional 80 to 100 rounds try several types of factory ammo and see what it likes. My Rem 700 7mm Rem. Mag likes some and hates others. For example it does MOA and Sub MOA with Hornady, Remington, and Federal stuff, the Winchester stuff it just wont take it, 3" groups at 100 yds.

    Also you'll need to reload if you want to go for 700 yds, at least thats what I would do to get under 0.5 MOA consistently. Example:
    Factory Winchester Silver Ballistic Tips = 3" at 100 yds
    Reloaded 140gr and 150gr Ballistic Silvertips give me 0.54" on my 7mm Rem Mag, and 0.43" and 0.36" on my two Rem 700 7mm-08's. You can save the brass for reloading later.

    All three guns have factory barrels and shoot great so don't get discouraged if yours is not shooting great yet. Lots of times it's human error and not the rifle, but make sure it's properly bedded first and then practice.

    When trying out the factory ammo or some reloads you are testing, shoot of sandbags or other proper shooting rest where the only thing moving when you fire is your trigger finger and very gently Lol. Your scope should not move at all when doing these tests, the gun must be very still.

    Hope this helps and have fun
     
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  8. Jmatt

    Jmatt Member

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    Dec 21, 2018
    Ryan,

    I am very new to this long range shooting stuff and most of what I know has been learned from this site so there are thousands here that can give better advise than I can. That being said, before I spent any more time and energy trying to make that rifle shoot I would definitely take off the scope, rings, and base and put them back on myself. You don't need any special tools to do this but it will at least eliminate one variable, and a very important one.

    I have had two scopes mounted by the "guy at the store" and both were done badly. The last time, the front ring wasn't quite seated and it destroyed the back of the groove on the rail slot it almost sat in. Pictures attached God willing. Can't make a gun a shooter if the scope is in motion! Many online videos show how to properly mount a scope. I don't own a bore sight so I just line up the barrel with a target on a wall and adjust the scope to it. Pretty easy and always gets me on paper.

    Jim
     

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  9. Alibiiv

    Alibiiv Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to suggest that you get away from the bore snake and buy yourself a good coated rod or a carbon fiber rod. Get yourself a bore guide to keep the inside of your barrel and bore nick and dent free.

    I have never tried pillar bedding, however have done a good many glass bedding jobs. With all of the rifles that I have done, accuracy on all of them has improved greatly. You'll get lots of opinions about glass bedding, I have had good results glass bedding from 4 inches in front of the recoil lug back and free-floating the rest of the barrel. The most important aspect of glass bedding when first starting out is to make sure that all of the parts that you do not want to stick to the stock are coated with release agent. I use black shoe polish and also a spray release agent sold by Brownells. If you can get the action to separate from the stock you ought to be okay. As for screwing up the bedding job, again get the receiver out of the stock clearance/grind/sand away what you are not satisfied with and start over by fiberglass skimming the areas that you are not satisfied with. Always always always cover your entire stock with masking tape. You will not believe where the glass can and will end up. I use Play-Do to make dams inside the stock in the magazine well, and barrel channel. There's plenty of good You Tube links showing you how to glass bed a stock.

    And.....when I read a post about accuracy, I always suggest starting with the basics. Always remove all of the mounting hardware scope base/s, rings, all the mounting screws. Check your receiver to make sure that all of the screw holes have threads and are not stripped out. Check your mounting screws with your bases to make sure that the screws are not bottoming out and preventing the base/s from being tightened down. I clean my screw holes and screws with brake or carb cleaner before assembly to ensure that they are clean for the Loctite to adhere to. I like to lap my rings in, it is amazing to see how misaligned that scope rings are. Always check the screw holes in the rings to make sure that they have threads and are not stripped out. Again clean the screws for the scope rings with brake or carb cleaner to ensure they will accept the Loctite. And.....always torque your screws to the recommended factory specs when mounting the scope.

    I have a friend who had a problem similar to yours. He is a very good shot, however his new 270WSM was giving him some real serious thoughts about his shooting abilities. His rifle would shoot good groups and then he would get a flier. It was only a few weeks before he was going on a guided mule deer/antelope hunt and he'd bought this rifle for the hunt so the pressure was on!!! While at the range I was watching him to see about his shooting posture, when he shot I saw the scope move ever so slightly! Long story short he had a cracked scope ring. Scope rings are not supposed to crack, I've never seen one crack in all my years of shooting 50+ years, and his did. Hope this helps with improving the accuracy of your rifle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  10. spud06

    spud06 Member

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    Take somebody with you that has some high power rifle shooting experience and have them shoot the gun with the same loads and see you you compare. Start there. Also check scope mounts and rings.
     
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  11. Ryan Tockstein

    Ryan Tockstein Member

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    Thanks everyone for all the suggestions!

    I went ahead and pillar and glass bedded the stock (since I wanted to do this anyway), got a SIMS recoil pad and have practiced shooting a bit. I now have 100-120 rounds through the barrel.

    My shooting ability is definitely a big part of the inaccuracy here! This being my first large caliber rifle, it's really surprising how much the recoil affects my accuracy. Comparing it to a 12gauge slug gun isn't really much of a comparison, especially when my slug gun is a remington 1100 which is pretty good at recoil reduction.

    My plan is to continue practicing with cheaper ammo that seems to group well, either have the scope mounts checked or do that myself, and in the end look into reloading.

    One thing I've noticed is that my barrel copper fouls extremely easily, with a good amount at the muzzle. I've been wondering if this is really throwing my accuracy after a minimal number of shots. I'll clean all the copper out, shooting 1 fouling shot, and then my first actual shot seems to usually be within 1/2" of where I'm aiming. The third shot generally seems to be several inches off.

    Hopefully I can find someone that is an experienced LR shooter (I don't know anyone that rifle hunts or shoots LR as a hobby) to really check my gun and my own ability. If a proven shooter can shoot it accurately, then I may look into getting a criterion barrel for it. It will at least then be easier to clean and I'll have to ignore the fact that I spent about the same price on a barrel as I did my gun :/
     
  12. spud06

    spud06 Member

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    You don't need a long range shooter. Just find someone else that can shoot their 30-06 or something similar into an inch or so and see how they do with it at 100 or 200 yards compared to you. But here is the catch, have him load the chamber for you. The idea here is to have him randomly leave the chamber empty and you not know when. He may leave the chamber empty for a few trigger snaps. It might take you 5-8 shots to get your 3 live rounds. If you are flinching, you will both see it. If flinching is your problem, you may need to get back to the .22 and concentrate. The 06 might be too much for you at this point. If you reloaded, you could adjust down. There may be some reduced recoil factory loads out there too. If you are flinching, then bedding, reloading, free-floating, trigger work won't do you much good. Actually, a good trigger would help, as it should be crisp enough to surprise you. Also, to be clear, recoil doesn't effect accuracy in and of itself. It's the flinch caused by the recoil. Flinch can be fixed with practice and confidence. Hang in there and work it out. Also, wear double ear protection. You could also try shooting from a "Lead Sled" or something like it. It would build confidence and help you desensitize.
     
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  13. Doom2

    Doom2 Member

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    All of the above advice is very relevant, though I suspect that the shooter may be the issue here. Going from a 22 to 30-06 is a big issue in terms of recoil control. You mentioned the slug gun which may have been helpful in the transition.

    Were you shooting on bags or a rest?
     
  14. Ryan Tockstein

    Ryan Tockstein Member

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    Yes, I just meant someone that is capable of shooting much better than myself, long range or not. I like the idea of not know if the chamber is actually loaded. Although from what I've read, it seems that even if you don't flinch there's the component of recoil management that relates to follow through. I've noticed that when the view through the scope jumps vertically when I shoot and not to one side or the other, the shot is generally much more accurate.

    Both. Neither one seemed to have an advantage for me over the other.