Minimum Velocity needed for hunting games at extreme distances

Dear Steve,
You are right at the point and i'm with your statements on bullets tumbling on flight if are not pushed supersonic or closed to low speed.
You are designing and manufacture CNC SOLID Bullets right?
they perform different, and believe I'm designing my own right now and in few week I will have first batch out the cnc for testing.
We noticed when shooting CHINCHAGA steel tip 300gr 338cal on 2400 yards (just 50yards under the subsonic speed they thumble and bounce on contact with the WATER or GROUND.
At first we tought they fragmented on impact (water) but we did further test and noticed they bounce like o rock thrown by a kid in water for fun....
Was a very sharp learning curve, and we switched to BERGER OTM and we never encounter the same symptoms.
We pushed them harder at 2600 yrds (OTM) and we could predict all the time the impact. they shoot amazing subsonic It is very hard to bitt BERGERs subsonic.
Down size of OTM on Games they work good no doubt but expansion is not as great as the SMK's and you have to be ready with follower shot just in case.

with SMK's we never have to used 2nd shot. One and game over.
Solid bulets (CNC made) they need 1800fps to open up...
Did you play with the hollow hole to make it deeper like 0.7-0.8in deep - to give the bullet a chance to open up even at lower speeds?
Yes we run deep hollow points. On our Hammer Hunter line basically to the shoulder. We have a Deadblow Hammer bullet line that we have a few done and will soon have a full line of them. With these we are running the HP down into the baring surface for about 40% weight retention. Pretty devastating.

As far as low vel deformation we are able to deform significantly lower than 1800fps with most all of the line. Only the smallest of the bullets need to be pretty close to 1800fps to open up.

Steve
 
This has been discussed a number of times, especially for the 338 SMK. For animals up to elk, the 338SMK has a large enough cross section to kill by penetration alone. The critical issue is your ability to place the bullet in the correct place so that the bullet does not have to expand. It acts like a muzzleloader ball. It kills by the size of the hole it makes. Smaller calibers make smaller holes and are not as effective when used as a non-expanding projectile.

If you read what Shawn says then it appears that tumbling occurs sometimes and that is basically a good thing as it enlarges the wound channel- similar to the Vietnam era M-16s.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/338-edge-vs-6x6-bull-elk-1308-yards.47786/page-5

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/whitetail-w-300-smk.70209/

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/my-dads-1314-yard-elk-w-338-edge.62265/page-2
 
Hi,

i'm trying to find the minimum Velocty needed for Berger OTM, SMK, Accubond LR bullets to open up on games at extreme distances.
Caliber of choice 338 edge and 7 rm.

far now i used smk and berger on games up to 1350 yrds.
want to extend the distance without wounded game, and i need real data from your own experience.
i keep my min velocity at 1600 fps, but i was wondering how low i can go..

Minimum Velocity needed on game
Smk - 1800fps
Berger OTM- 1600fps
accubond LR -1300fps (by nosler claims)

Thank you for your help.

I quickly skinned a few post and I didn't see this point so I'm just going drop this this here...
Although they go hand and hand maybe try looking at the energy being transferred at that distance. For a soft target, the debatable absolute bare minimum to produce hydrostatic shock in a deer or human is 600 ft/lbs of energy. Now like I said, the number is a topic for debate that I don't care to get into the science of, but most people opt to set a higher number for a minimal. A elk is more dense so more ke will be required to produce A. Good penetration and B. Good hydrostatic shock. Bullet design and type obviously has a say in how well all that works as well, higher bc will retain energy, and expanding bullet vs a match hollow point will have a harder time penetrating but will dump its energy harder, while a match bullet usually has jacket separation, so less retained weight and less energy transfer because it kind of flips around and does whatever it's going to do as it creates cavitation .
 
Enough of my opinion. You may get your best answer by low vel impact testing your bullets. If you use reduced loads to test with run the ballistics in a twist calculator to make sure that your stability factor is high enough. In our testing we have found that bullets that have a stability factor below 1.5sg do not deform as well. This will be a good thing to consider as you extend your hunting range. Bullets that are less than 1.5sg will tend to yaw on impact and not deform. Often they will not track true or tumble. You hear stories about both of your selected bullets not opening and I am pretty sure it is not a failure of the bullet but a failure to have a high enough stability factor to initiate expansion.

Good luck and good hunting.

Steve

This matches up almost perfectly with what I saw when testing low velocity bullet expansion in wet leather. The higher the stability factor, the better the bullets expanded and penetrated. They may have shot well with a stability factor of 1.4-1.5sg but they either wouldn't expand predictably or they'd tumble shortly after impact.

Andrew
 
Dear Buffalobob,

I know about this 3 posts. Shawn is a great guy and shooter no doubts. I got same performance of 300SMK out of my 338EDGE up to 1350yard and velocity was around 1600 fps. Shawn stories confirm my findings and my shots on games was the same damage or game reaction with 300gr SMK impact at 1600fps.
I hear there and there stories of shots past 1600-1800-2000 yards on elk or deer but i could not find the post to find the details of the shot, bullet placement, impact velocity, damage...
Of course they will expire on impact even at very very low speed 1200fps, just by slow bleeding, but if you aim for the bone (front shoulder, or high shoulder shots) you get them out faster (bone fragments get in lung area and speed up the bleeding).
My self I prefer on elk and moose to placed the shot on high shoulder area just for that reason. DIRT... and will be no argue who shot it or game walk away "and be a fair game".
Got my last season my cow moose at 840yard neck shoot. Drop on spot.
Entrance and exit was just a small hole less then 1.5inch and because I hit the spine was game over / DIRT. No meat damage, no expansion, just pass through .
Same will happen at 1200fps at extreme distance but as you know sometimes wind can change his mind and for 3-5second bullet flying time can push it on less then perfect shot placement.
For us as longrange hunters we have to account for everything and make sure every shot is well placed without inflicting more pain.
As Shawn statements looks if you aim for bones 300SMK will do the job no matter what speed is traveling at.
Issue is when you shoot double lung and you are not hitting the ribs to inflict a greater damage in vitals.



This has been discussed a number of times, especially for the 338 SMK. For animals up to elk, the 338SMK has a large enough cross section to kill by penetration alone. The critical issue is your ability to place the bullet in the correct place so that the bullet does not have to expand. It acts like a muzzleloader ball. It kills by the size of the hole it makes. Smaller calibers make smaller holes and are not as effective when used as a non-expanding projectile.

If you read what Shawn says then it appears that tumbling occurs sometimes and that is basically a good thing as it enlarges the wound channel- similar to the Vietnam era M-16s.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/338-edge-vs-6x6-bull-elk-1308-yards.47786/page-5

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/whitetail-w-300-smk.70209/

http://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/my-dads-1314-yard-elk-w-338-edge.62265/page-2
 
Some might take that as a compliment though obviously not your intent. Some ignorance is showing because Snipers are hunters, they are called HOGs as in Hunter of Gunmen.
Dredging up an old post to flame someone (that hasn't been around in a long while) shows your character as well.

BAM, another ignore! Rackin'em up!
Thanks for a good laugh. I needed it!
 
Well I don't recall exactly, but i think it's over 10 years that the (extreme) distance segment of this site originated.
Also as i recall Broz was very instrumental in getting it started.
Early on there were some very excited (followers) who were convinced that the stories of extreme distance kills would be rolling in, and i remember a few being vocal about that.
Problem is it hasent happened. That's not to say it couldn't, but from what I've seen it hasent yet.
But can we believe it hasent been tried numerous times?
About 5 years ago and maybe a bit longer, Broz and i got into a discussion on this site about long shots on game. I was not ashamed to admit that my longest shot was 1200 and a few yards with a 7x300 Weatherby. I also said I wouldn't attempt another that far with that gun based upon what i had seen. Broz admitted that his longest at that point was that very year on an Antelope at about the same distance, with as i recall a 300 Win Mag.
Before the discussion was over Shawn had gotten involved, and after some pressure from me said his longest was 1600 and some change. Again, there was no admission or pressure placed on anybody to say that longer attempts hadnt been made.
Over the last 15 or so years, i have personally sat behind hunters using very accurate 338x378s and 338x416s using 300 gr SMKs leaving the muzzle at 3000+FPS. Ive watched 5 bucks get hit in good locations at distances of 900 to 1400 and just walk away as though they were never even touched.
Now they all died, and none went over 100' or so till that happened. But without spotters using very good glasses, what might have been the outcome?
Ive been hunting long range exclusively for about 50 years in what is no doubt some of the best area in the east. I can no doubt name 100 serious others i either know or have known who hunt the same way including some record holding 1000 yd shooters. That said, i have only known 2 who even claim to have killed a deer at 1 mile in PA.
One of my best friends did kill a cow Elk in Colorado at 2000 yds with a 36" barreled 30x378 bench gun using a 220 SMK. My son was sitting behind him calling shots with his large tripod mounted glasses. It took a few shots to get the right input, and 1 shot did kill the Elk on the spot although not instantly.
The day before at the same place was a totally different story however as numerous shots were essentially all over the place due to wind, and they finally just gave up and left with the Elk still there.
He has never expressed a desire to try it again.
If the OP were really serious, he would talk with a person like say Bruce Baer, who has been building long range guns for decades, and not be asking questions on websites.
He would probably very diplomatically attemp to talk some sense into your head. Lol
But he would also be saying that for the distance your thinking about you need a 300 gr bullet and preferably larger, leaving the muzzle at at least 3200 FPS and preferably more.
And I'd bet if you would ask Shawn Carlock, he would be saying the same thing.
 
Nathan put in some good work on External Ballistics of what """could""" happen,,, that's not saying that each situation """could""" turn into +'s out -'s depending on how the package is delivered and received...

Let's call it the 50/50 not saying it might be the 20/80 or 80/20... Ha

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/

Ft-per seconds and ft-lbs energy play a role,,, along with boolit construction and how it performs when it tags the Wrapper...

Plus a person can look at a few different cartridges to see how they perform,,, again,,, these are observations only...

The what """could""" and maybe """Nots""" fall into the picture as well...

Yuppers,,, I put a cap on my distances since its all about putting food in the freezer,,, so far so good...

Cheers from the North
 
Was never very good at physics, but why wouldn't the discussion be directed more at foot-lbs of energy vs velocity. Given all the different types of long range bullets, weights and designs, would think you'd need to know when your specific bullet loses enough energy to be effective for all possible hits in a vital area. I would also assume there could be sizable differences in velocity with different bullets as to when the threshold on on foot-lbs of energy is reached.
 
Ft lbs of energy is calculated using velocity so I guess both come in to play somewhere in the equation...? If there is no transfer of said energy (as in bullet performance) then it is a moot point. IDK, I really don't worry about energy because I usually use a large and heavy enough bullet/caliber that it keeps enough so called energy as long as the bullet is going fast enough to perform as designed. My .375 starts out currently at well over 8,000 ft lbs, and still has more energy at the minimum velocity I think my bullet will perform than most common hunting cartridges do at the muzzle.:D
 
Dear jfseaman,

I know the story, about hunting bullets and match bullets. I'm using match bullets aka SMK and berger OTm for 10 years on games, and never have one run away (up to 1350 yrds)
Now I want to extend the distance on safe manner.

I read some one of the member mentioned using 300gr SMK up to 2000 yards as long the bullets fly SUPERSONIC - will be devastating on elk.

Just want to check this statement before running around and poke animals that far.

My intended game this year are elk and mulley deers what ever gives the opportunity first.
Just out of curiosity what is the drop inches at 2000 yrds on A 338 EDGE?
 
Was never very good at physics, but why wouldn't the discussion be directed more at foot-lbs of energy vs velocity. Given all the different types of long range bullets, weights and designs, would think you'd need to know when your specific bullet loses enough energy to be effective for all possible hits in a vital area. I would also assume there could be sizable differences in velocity with different bullets as to when the threshold on on foot-lbs of energy is reached for a specific bullet.

Well the topic is with regard to (extreme) distance, so what defines (extreme) distance?
If we want to be fair to everybody, then the threshold needs to be lower.
If we want to call it as it is, then for sure it would mean beyond 1000 yds, and in my own opinion beyond 1200 yds.
That would pretty much rule out anything less than 30 cal.
So that means I've already made some enemy's. Lol
But reality is very few if any reading this will ever have a chance at even a 1000 yd shot at an animal.
Statistics indicate most long range kills take place well under 1000 yds, and under 700 would describe the vast majority.
A bigger issue than what gun or bullet to use, is how your going to find game to shoot at at the extreme distances?
Especially brown on brown, which means much of the time at many places.
Then assuming you do find one, is it a buck? And does it have the proper number of points to make it legal?
How much can we, or more to the point how much are we willing to spend, besides the gun and bullet cost to make this happen?
 
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