Longrange reality check

[wapiti13]

Maybe some others could chime in on how the "in between" yardages work on a holdover type of reticle.

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When using a reticle with stadia marked off for holdover, it is easy to shoot the in-between ranges. Say that you have a 400 & 500 yd holdover marks. To shoot 450 yds you bracket the animal between the 400 & 500 holdover marks, thus using a point halfway in between as your aiming point. It may sound confusing, but is natural when you look at your target and match it to your sight picture. Method works with mildots, stadia lines like Leupold,Burris, or Swarovski. With a little practice, sight picture becomes very quick.

 

[Ian M]

We usually hunt in pairs, one guy on the laser and the other guy lining up the shot initially. When the distance is called the guy on the gun cranks elevation and then collaborates on the wind call. Wind is put on and the shot is taken. Usually we are not rushed, expect that time to get the shot away would be about 30-65 seconds. Depends on how quickly the rifle is positioned, if a second shooter is going to backup, if the critter looks like it is going to move out - best not to rush.
Since trajectories do not form a nice smooth arc holding midway between 100 yard distances is not good enough for accurate shot placement at longer ranges. Out to 4-500 yards it works but for longer distances the bullet drops very quickly, we had to go to 25 yard increments for the extreme distance we hunt with the .308 Win. The bullet is dropping from quite a height so I expect that is a factor, not just horizontal flight. Amazing the angle that the bullet is hitting at out at 700 yards, we shoot through cardboard boxes and can determine the angle by putting a rod through the bullet holes.

 

[4ked Horn]

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4ked Horn...
"Can I ask why you want to know? Do you have an apprehension to using the scope adjustments in the field?"

Well, I guess it is just a confidence thing. I haven't done as much hunting as people on this board, and sometimes (from what little experience I have)trying to imagine putting a lazer on an animal, checking a drop chart, and then turing and turing a dial to get dialed in. Seems like all of that could take sixty seconds or more, and places I have hunted it doesn't seem that I have had that much time before taking a shot. Friends of mine who hunt a lot more than I do have alwyas recomended a scope that is 2X to 3X on the low end, and they hunt set to that low setting feeling that if they jump a buck they have more of a chance to find him in the glass. I'm trying to figure out how many here grab a good vantage, set up and wait, and how many stalk.

So I guess that train of thought, as well the cost of the fancy scopes kind of sent me in the direction of a 3X9 or 4X10.



I mean it makes sence that this would be the way to go, but I can also see where these would be great for the benchrest, I wonder how useful for the guy walking around in the mountains.

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You are correct that while walking in the area to be hunted you would crank the power all the way down for fast aquisition of an impromptu shot.IMO

However, as someone stated before there is close hunting and there is long hunting. When you are sitting on a hilside or the high side of an open expanse and shooting animals that are going about their normal affairs you have a good deal of time (relatively speaking) to make a set up. When you find the area you want to watch for animals you could do an initial scan with your range finder and get an idea of the distances you are dealing with. Once you have done that you may set up the rifle and get a good resting position (both you and the gun) for more concentrated glassing. If in fact you do see a target you would get a range, look at your drop chart (taped to the stock in a convenient location) and then put in your elevation. Look at wind indicators both near and far and then dial for your estimate. Some people even take a "sighter shot" at a rock or other suitable target at the same distance as the animal but directed to a different area to confirm the adjustments. Then back to the animal. Breathe, squeeze and Whack . Look for the hit (or the miss) and ready your self for the next shot. If the animal falls then you are done. If you hit dirt then adjust and shoot again.

If you are confident at the range you will be shooting (read that as : If you have had a satisfactory number of first shot hits on "kill zone" sized targets at the the range you will be shooting under similar conditions) then you can dispose of the sighter shot and fire for effect.

The time it takes to crank in your dials is quite short compared with the time you spend watching for meat to wander into view.

As for the cost you should be able to get an 800 yard deer gun up and running for less than a grand, easily. I have a Rem 700 VLS .308 and a Leupopld 4.5x14x40 ad that ran about 900 bucks. I have spent more than that, maybe a total of $1300 (including the gun and scope) to get it the way I want it but if you get a heavy bbl savage and a decent scope you can shoot 500 yards with it tomorrow for a very decent price.

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Am I wrong to think that those scopes with the adjustments on the sides are as expensive, and as fragil as they look? By the way, what it the technical name for the style of scope that has the big external adjustment knobs?

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They are as expensive as any other scope of comparable quality. They are generaly used as a tactical scope so they are often times very rugged. (leupold gold ring scopes have a lifetime warrantee that goes with the scope regardless of whether you are the original owner or not.)

You would ask for a scope with "Target knobs" or "Target turrets". I have also heard them called " Tactical adjustments".

 

[wapiti13]

Greenhorn,
Leupold has their B&C reticle, Burris has its Ballisticplex, Swarovski & Kahles has the TDS reticle, and many others. Of these, I like the TDS reticle the best. Of course it is on the more expensive scopes. If you are trying to save money, the FullField II Burris scopes with the Ballisticplex are hard to beat for the money. There are better scopes out there, but the Burris is what I would consider your bottom entry quality scope. You normally sight in for around 200 yds & then use the stadia marks out to 600yds. System works OK if you and your rifle are up for it. Again, a good rangefinder is a must & you MUST shoot at the distances to see where you really impact.

 

[Tailgunner]

I'm not real experanced at what the guy's here call "longrange" as I have a personal limit of under 500yd (440 is about the longest shot opertunity I get, but I have places that let me practice out further).
This photo is the retical I use, happens to be a 3.5-10x Shepherd. The rings (below the crosshair) are 18" at a given range and the spacing matchs my handloads balistic curve (at least out to the 700yd I've tested it). In between distances are handled by "bracketing" between the yardage aiming points.
BTW The tree line is 440yd away.

 

[chain]

4kedHorn, I'm new to this also just starting to reload and get shooting again. Youo stated in a previous post about getting a heavy barrelled rifle. Is the heavy barrel necessary? Why I ask is I have a savage .300win that I am going to put a trigger on and maybe a new stock and try to get it to shoot far. I wanted to take it west with me. By reading the info on this site I also see that I need to invest in better optics. But I'd like to know if I'm wasting my time with a regular barrel on my rifle. Thanks Chain

 

[thocon]

I have a 3-12 kahles,I can't tell the color of your eyes but i can tell if your wearing glasses.I have other name brand scopes but they realy don't compair!!!.In my book rule #1 you have to see it to shoot it.

 

[4ked Horn]

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You stated in a previous post about getting a heavy barrelled rifle. Is the heavy barrel necessary?

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A heavy bbl has many benefits toward long range shooting. First you must remember that accuracy and precision (which are NOT the same thing) are dependant on consistancy. In order to send a bullet on the same path every thing must be the same. In order to predict this path every thing must be the same. That being said, a heavy bbl warms more slowly. This means that your shots travel down a bbl that is a more consistant temp. The stresses in the bbl that cause it to change shape appear more slowly and therefore each subsequent shot taken is affected only a small amount. A thin wall bbl heats quickly and the stresses in the steel wil cause a more rapid warping and bending in the shape of the bbl. You will notice this by shooting at a target 5 or 10 times in a row with your shots a few (10-20)seconds apart. The holes in the target will normaly rise from the point of aim, up and to the right. With a thick walled bbl this happens more slowly. The bullet holes will be closer together. They may not even "string" at all over a 10 shot group.

Another benefit to a heavy bbl is the reduction of bbl "whip". Picture a long balloon hanging empty from your mouth. As you begin to blow air into the balloon it begins to rise from your mouth outward. A gun bbl will do the same thing as the bullet is pushed outward by very high pressures. It actually hangs in an arc (if it is freefloated) and as the bullet moves it stiffens and the muzzle whips upward. As the bullet is leaving the bbl the tail of the bullet receives an upward kick. However there is a law of gyroscopic physics that causes the upward kick to result in a sideways spin of the bullet. The more the bullet is disrupted upon its launch the harder it is for the bullet to restabilize in flight. The bigger the disruption the les consistant the flight.

A heavy bbl whips less and heats slower and dampens shooter movement but is it necessary? I will leave that for you to decide based on the type of shooting you will be doing and the distances you are trying to reach. There are more than a few match grade thin bbls on some very nice rifles that are designed to be more portable than the heavy guns but still put that first cold bbl shot in the same place every time.

A lot of words, hope they helped.

 

[marketello]

Very good lesson, thank you.

Just curious, do some manufactures put heavier stock barrels on their rifles than others? I know I don't want a heavy bull barrel, they are classed by #2 #3, ect??

I have heard that Remington puts a semi heavy barrel on their rifles, a #2? What to you think of the stock barrel on the CDL, or BDL? Is remington getting away with the bare min, or did they try to give their customer's a good stock barrel?

 

[4ked Horn]

You are welcome. I hope I was clear. I type slowly enough that I sometimes get lazy and try to condense explanations that simply require alot of words.

Normaly a gun manufacturer will put on the "optimum" weight bbl for the market they are trying to hit. A customer looking for a light weight rifle does not want a heavy bbl whereas a customer looking for a varmint gun wants a bbl that he feels is rigid enough for his needs but the company would be foolish to make the bbl any thicker than they need to meet the needs of MOST customers wanting this option. A minimum thickness is always there for safety reasons.

The actual quality of barrels can vary with the maker and even the process the maker uses to produce their barrels. Right now you almost cant go wrong with any remington or savage rifle that has the features you preffer. They are making some fine bbls (both thick and thin)and putting them on regular over the counter guns.

If you want to know more about the different tapers available I would suggest you look at the web sites for companies like Shillen, Lilja, Pac-Nor, Douglas, Bullberry and others. There you will find their taper dimensions and mixed in between the numbered styles you will find the dimensions for others like "remington light varmint".

 

[Ridge Runner]

Greenhorn, in 1996 I had my first custom rifle built, Its a Bansner UR-1 in 7mmstw, I shot the rifle enough to know the trajectory. I have taken deer at 408,403,487, and 506 yds. I know with my sight in of 2.2" high at 100 that it is a fuzz over 19" low at 500. Now I put the crosshairs 8" over a deers back and if I dope the wind right, they just seem to magicly fall over. 2 years ago I had premier install target knobs on my 6.5x20 loopy. I'm not fond of checking the range, checking the charts, dialing in then trying the shot, So I'm thinking I need a new LR rig.

 

[cdmorten]

I have to chime in on this one. Until last year I had never owned a hi power rifle with a scope. I saw a sniper show on the discovery channel, read Marine Sniper and decided that I had to get into long range shooting. My first rifle was a Rem vs 308 with a Leupold 3.5 - 10 M3 LR scope. That's a great scope for guys getting into long range hunting and wanting something that is easy to work and gives you repeatable results. Anyway, I couldn't hit the target the first time out to the range with it. I had to have someone else sight it in because I was such a flincher.

With about 600 rounds under my belt, I was hitting bowling pins at 500 Meters. That's with a 10 power. I don't flinch any more either. I've convinced myself that I'm a recoil junkie. I have a 300WM with a Leupold M1 4.5 - 14 and it's a bit easier to make that shot, but not much, (that's a great size of scope for hunting by the way).

All of my friends that I hunt with do everything they can to get closer to the animal, I like to be as far away as possible. Nothing is better than a well executed long shot.

Practice makes perfect and practice is so fun. Good luck!