Long range weatherby guys

[Elkndeer]

There seems to be a general lack of (reliable) info concerning good accurate weatherby long range systems. I am currently shooting a stock 300 Wby mag with a bedding and free float job. This gun will shoot .15 moa all the way out to 1400 yards and probably further if I had the distance to push it.

My problem is this gun only shoots accurately at about 45-50% of the max velocity this round is capable of, and that is with a match bullet not suitable for hunting purposes.

Outside of this particular loading, this gun is VERY finicky as is all my weatherbys for that matter. A couple tenths change in powder charge or a few thousandths in seating really screws with this gun and there just doesn't seem to be a higher velocity node for this bullet or any others that I have tried. Barnes, Berger, Sierra, Hornady (new eldX), Yada yada yada.

In short, I have a long range paper plinker, not the big game hunter I set out to create.

Having reloaded with great accuracy and precision about 75 different guns for family and friends, I have found that a good shooting gun will shoot any bullet powder combination decent and really settling it into a .25 moa is almost easy.
Not the case with many of the weatherbys I have loaded for, including all of my particular rifles. At best they will shoot a particular load good and some even phenomenal, but vary from that and they become slingshots at best.

That said, I am tired of beating my head against the wall and am considering a barrel upgrade. I have been researching barrel replacement and the one reoccurring subject that keeps coming up is the Wby factory #2 contour barrels are terribly inaccurate. I believe in the weatherby actions and their bolts are the stoutest commercially available in my opinion, however, the barrels are a crapshoot as to whether you end up with a shooter or not. Take a look at weatherby nation and that will prove my point!

So, for those of you who have experience re-barreling Weatherbys, was the freebore in a new barrel a concern for you?
Did you opt to shorten the throat?
Did you find the freebore in a higher quality barrel to have accuracy problems?
Any experience seating the VLD's in the freebore? I haven't had any luck at all in this dept. and steer clear of berger's for that reason.

Did you have other accurizing done? squaring receiver, bolt face, lapping lugs etc.?
They say in general their actions are decent for squareness unlike the remingtons etc. so should this even be a concern?

It seems there are few gunsmiths out there who I would consider to be first and foremost a good long range smith and secondly a weatherby guy. i.e. everyone I have talked to said they can do the accurizing work but don't have the tools to work on weatherby actions (including Bartlein barrels themselves).
That leaves me with a LR guy who doesn't have the proper tooling to work on my guns or a Wby guy who doesn't know jack about LR precision.

Any recommendations for a good smith in this department I would appreciate. I have already come to the conclusion I will need to ship so location is not a factor.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[dagrizman]

I was in the same boat. Wanted a long range rig on a Weatherby action. I elected to use a Shilen barrel. 28" in a 6 contour. Heavy for sure. Had Karl Kempfeld do the barrel to action work and a heavy flute with his custom break. Went with a .300 WM. I have a .340 Bee for heavy hunting. Have just started load work so not much to report at this time. I sent a dummy round along to Karl for the build with the 215 Gr Berger. Made a big mistake when I ordered the barrel, 1/12" instead of the 1/10" twist. Going to need to drop bullet weight I do believe. No problem as I have lots of room to work with in the seating depth with the MK V Action & mag box. Just my own experience for your info. Griz.

 

[sable tireur]

Weatherby Accuracy


I honestly don't have the time to write the dissertation it would take to answer all the questions you raise. However, I can address some of the questions regarding the actions, accuracy enhancements and accuracy in general.


Mark V barrel threads are 1-1/16-16, UNA – 3A


This thread form is exactly the same as the Remington M700 thread form. Why there is a problem accurizing this Weatherby thread, I'll never understand? Most of us have a fixture or method of holding the action in a lathe so that we can single point the threads with a minimal truing cut. This cut is based on using the center of the action as a true bore line or zero. The action can be faced and the threads trued in one set up. The only thing left out is truing the lug seats which in this case number too many to attack by cutting. These are generally left for lapping. Rarely, if ever, do all nine (or 6) lugs mate exactly.



REF:
[FONT=&quot]The bolt diameter for the Mark V 9 lug bolt is .842.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The bolt diameter for the Mark V® 6 lug bolt is .706.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The bolt is placed in the lathe and a face truing cut is made.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There aren't any mysteries regarding how accurate barrels are made. There are several makers who know the process and maintain strict manufacturing processes to insure that each barrel meets their standards. We choose one of those and then proceed to set it up properly then thread the tenon and cut the chamber. The trick here is that reamers are usually ground to one of two standards, SAAMI or custom. A gunsmith cannot be expected to have all the variations available for one cartridge since the price of a single reamer is fast approaching $200.00/each. Generally we keep a SAAMI spec reamer on hand and use separate reamers for the throat and neck if required. A gunsmith who has a specialty in say benchrest cartridges, may have specialized reamers which are used more frequently than SAAMI reamers.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]In this situation a dummy cartridge (or 3) is required to cut the throat and freebore (leade). Herein lies the problem, you have to pick the bullet or bullets you want to shoot in order to get the proper throat and leade cut. These bullets need to be approximately the same length and shape. But if the barrel is one of the very best and straight and the gunsmith does his job properly, a straight chamber in a straight barrel should shoot most bullets accurately.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]In essence there shouldn't be any problem getting your barrel replaced with one of vastly better quality if you pay attention to getting a best barrel and a qualified gunsmith. Weatherby states flat out that they will only guarantee 1-1/2" for the larger cartridges in the smaller diameter barrels. Skip matching the factory contour and step up in diameter and taper thereby allowing for the potential of better accuracy. This will usually require a new stock which will allow for a larger diameter barrel.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I've left out a ton of information and answers but this will get you started.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Regards.
[/FONT]

 

[Elkndeer]

Thanks for the input sable tireur.

I guess my follow up question would be if I go with a heavier longer barrel (straight taper 26" at least) as I had already planned, What are my chances of winding up with a 1/4 or less moa gun with saami spec chamberings?
Everyone is all about the freebore causing accuracy problems and shortening it causes pressure problems....that said I have loaded for some but definitely a minority of weatherby factory guns that shoot phenomenal. All with the light contour should be noted.

Im even considering going away from the wby calibers to a rem mag or rum to alleviate this concern all together. Problem is I have about 1000 rounds of 300 wby brass and at least that many bullets I wouldn't have much use for if I changed calibers plus the expense of new brass and bullets.

My end game here is a high velocity high bc round that will lengthen the ethical distances for a hunting gun. I have no doubt I can get the gun to shoot well. Million dollar question is will it shoot at the higher velocity nodes accurately which my current setup will not do thus rendering all the higher velocity (and expense) of the WBY useless.

Thanks

 

[Rich Coyle]

Load the .300 Weatherby as though it were a .300 Remington, if there were such a thing, and don't sweat the freebore or lack of it. I have a Weatherby on its forth barrel. I work up loads as I would any other round.

 

[sable tireur]

I guess my follow up question would be if I go with a heavier longer barrel (straight taper 26" at least) as I had already planned, What are my chances of winding up with a 1/4 or less moa gun with saami spec chamberings?

No offense intended but I think that you're overworking this a tad bit.


Speaking in generalities, shorter, slightly heavier barrels are the easiest to tune for a node. Case in point are the short range benchrest shooters and their 20-22" barrels. But this isn't necessarily the best combination for a case which holds 100 grains of water and can utilize 200 grain + bullets. So yes, in answer to your question, I think that a heavier, longer barrel would be more applicable than the pencil thin factory barrels.


What are the chances of ¼ MOA rifle? This will depend on the gunsmith, the barrel and the machining of the barrel with the action. Best accuracy is achieved when the bore of the action is in perfect alignment with the bore of the barrel. Everything is straight. This includes the chamber in the barrel as well. If the bullet is seated straight and the cartridge is chambered straight then the rifle ought to shoot up to your ability to guide it based on the load. In my experience, ¼ MOA barrels in this configuration are a bit rare, at least consistently ¼ MOA, not the once or twice ¼ MOA groups. Usually we will see a definite trend towards a 3/8 – ½ MOA rifle consistently with the 1/2MOA being the usual. You're building a hunting rifle not a benchrest rifle. If you want to shoot long range benchrest then we need to discuss a different configuration.


I just finished a .300 Weatherby hunting rifle with a 26" barrel + a brake. The contour is a #4 Bartlein although it is not a Bartlein barrel. This has a muzzle diameter of 0.750" at 26". The action is a new stainless steel Remington 700 completely blueprinted. The barreled action is bedded into an HS Precision Sendero style stock with the bedding block. Currently it is using the standard Remington BDL bottom metal although I'm getting ready to change it out for a detachable box system.



The initial loads were Berger 210 gr. VLD hunting bullets seated at 3.560" over a full charge of either Re-25 or IMR-7828 for a MV of 3050 fps. These printed ½" groups at 100 yards consistently after a short break in. I also reduced the MV by switching to a couple of cooler powders to see if slightly slower velocities and the potential of a longer barrel life would still hold the same accuracy which they did. The MV was 100 fps slower with the same ½" 100 yard groups.


Regards.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Thanks for the input sable tireur.

I guess my follow up question would be if I go with a heavier longer barrel (straight taper 26" at least) as I had already planned, What are my chances of winding up with a 1/4 or less moa gun with saami spec chamberings?
Everyone is all about the freebore causing accuracy problems and shortening it causes pressure problems....that said I have loaded for some but definitely a minority of weatherby factory guns that shoot phenomenal. All with the light contour should be noted.

Im even considering going away from the wby calibers to a rem mag or rum to alleviate this concern all together. Problem is I have about 1000 rounds of 300 wby brass and at least that many bullets I wouldn't have much use for if I changed calibers plus the expense of new brass and bullets.

My end game here is a high velocity high bc round that will lengthen the ethical distances for a hunting gun. I have no doubt I can get the gun to shoot well. Million dollar question is will it shoot at the higher velocity nodes accurately which my current setup will not do thus rendering all the higher velocity (and expense) of the WBY useless.

Thanks

Why not build a .300 Ackley since you already have all that .300 Wby brass and bullets...

 

[waltercrouse]

No offense intended but I think that you're overworking this a tad bit.


Speaking in generalities, shorter, slightly heavier barrels are the easiest to tune for a node. Case in point are the short range benchrest shooters and their 20-22" barrels. But this isn't necessarily the best combination for a case which holds 100 grains of water and can utilize 200 grain + bullets. So yes, in answer to your question, I think that a heavier, longer barrel would be more applicable than the pencil thin factory barrels.


What are the chances of ¼ MOA rifle? This will depend on the gunsmith, the barrel and the machining of the barrel with the action. Best accuracy is achieved when the bore of the action is in perfect alignment with the bore of the barrel. Everything is straight. This includes the chamber in the barrel as well. If the bullet is seated straight and the cartridge is chambered straight then the rifle ought to shoot up to your ability to guide it based on the load. In my experience, ¼ MOA barrels in this configuration are a bit rare, at least consistently ¼ MOA, not the once or twice ¼ MOA groups. Usually we will see a definite trend towards a 3/8 – ½ MOA rifle consistently with the 1/2MOA being the usual. You're building a hunting rifle not a benchrest rifle. If you want to shoot long range benchrest then we need to discuss a different configuration.


I just finished a .300 Weatherby hunting rifle with a 26" barrel + a brake. The contour is a #4 Bartlein although it is not a Bartlein barrel. This has a muzzle diameter of 0.750" at 26". The action is a new stainless steel Remington 700 completely blueprinted. The barreled action is bedded into an HS Precision Sendero style stock with the bedding block. Currently it is using the standard Remington BDL bottom metal although I'm getting ready to change it out for a detachable box system.



The initial loads were Berger 210 gr. VLD hunting bullets seated at 3.560" over a full charge of either Re-25 or IMR-7828 for a MV of 3050 fps. These printed ½" groups at 100 yards consistently after a short break in. I also reduced the MV by switching to a couple of cooler powders to see if slightly slower velocities and the potential of a longer barrel life would still hold the same accuracy which they did. The MV was 100 fps slower with the same ½" 100 yard groups.


Regards.

Free floating barrels are not the answer on some rifles. The problem with a large powder load is barrel whip. The harmonics of the barrel vibrating under load. Shooting the barrel free floating and take a wedge and move it up down under the barrel and stock. When you get the best group ,this your sweet spot and where you need to bed your barrel. I agree Berger bullets , will give you match shot groups.

 

[fisherman983]

straight shooter supply in north bend Oregon would be a good smith for you to look into. they are a member here but cant remember his screen name atm. they have a couple weatherby rifles in their personal collection. they build my gun and if I do my part, it will shoot 1/4 moa.

 

[sable tireur]

Free floating barrels are not the answer on some rifles. The problem with a large powder load is barrel whip. The harmonics of the barrel vibrating under load. Shooting the barrel free floating and take a wedge and move it up down under the barrel and stock. When you get the best group ,this your sweet spot and where you need to bed your barrel. I agree Berger bullets , will give you match shot groups.

Well, we haven't done pressure bedding on precision rifles in over 30 years. This used to be the standard suggested solution for the factory pencil barrels before it was discovered that you could re-barrel and gain consistent accuracy by using a high quality stress relieved barrel instead of the factory barrel.

Currently most of us bed the action/bottom metal and the first 1"-2" of the barrel shank in front of the recoil lug to avoid some of the stress being applied to the action tenon intersection from using longer heavier barrels. After that the barrel is free floated. Rifles using this procedure are usually capable of 3/8" - 1/2" accuracy if the shooter and his loads are capable. This applies to tactical/LE rifles currently being created by several of the top builders in the U.S.

With regard to original posters queries, the .300 Weatherby cartridge is not a mystery or a problematic cartridge. All you need to do is build the rifle according to the standards used by most of the top builders here in the U.S. Avoid the pencil barrels and opt for something a little more substantial in contour.

Buy a barrel from one of the top makers; Bartlein and Krieger usually get my vote although there are a couple of others which are suitable as well.

Choose the bullets you intend to shoot predominantly to establish the twist rate and the throat.

Get a professionally made reamer from either PTG or Manson. You can pay a lot more for a JGS but the quality doesn't support the cost.

Select a gunsmith who understands quality and accuracy. Don't settle for anything less than the best and be willing to pay for it.

Sit back, relax or go shoot something you already own to pass the time until your new dream comes to fruition.

Best of luck with your build!

 

[gohring3006]

I don't have to much trouble loading my factory 300 Weatherby Vanguard.
It didn't tame down until I put a brake on it. I think it tames the harmonics down quite a bit with the extra weight on the end of the pencil barrel. (Witt Machine Clamp on brake)..

I started off with 208 Amax's and was able to find a decent sub MOA load, then tried the 215 Bergers, and they shot about 3/4 MOA @ 2950 fps.

Then.... I tried the big ole long bearing surface 225 grain Hornady BTHP. That thing shoots great in the long free bore Weatherby. I haven't Chrony the load yet, but I think I might have found the bullet... More test this weekend...

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I don't have to much trouble loading my factory 300 Weatherby Vanguard.
It didn't tame down until I put a brake on it. I think it tames the harmonics down quite a bit with the extra weight on the end of the pencil barrel. (Witt Machine Clamp on brake)..

I started off with 208 Amax's and was able to find a decent sub MOA load, then tried the 215 Bergers, and they shot about 3/4 MOA @ 2950 fps.

Then.... I tried the big ole long bearing surface 225 grain Hornady BTHP. That thing shoots great in the long free bore Weatherby. I haven't Chrony the load yet, but I think I might have found the bullet... More test this weekend...

A buddy and I are using the 225 hdy hpbt in his 300roy accumark also. It (pushed by 7828) is about the only consistently moa or less solution we have found so far. The Sierra 220 hpbt seems to be on par and he has 500 of them waiting on the hdy pills getting shot up.

If the accumark were my rifle it would have been down the road a long time ago; he simply didn't want to part with the pipe so we went to work on her.

 

[gohring3006]

A buddy and I are using the 225 hdy hpbt in his 300roy accumark also. It (pushed by 7828) is about the only consistently moa or less solution we have found so far. The Sierra 220 hpbt seems to be on par and he has 500 of them waiting on the hdy pills getting shot up.

If the accumark were my rifle it would have been down the road a long time ago; he simply didn't want to part with the pipe so we went to work on her.

I'm using 7828 as well. Most guys are getting a actual BC of .71 with the 225.
If I can get 2800 fps or more, that thing shouldn't be pushed around much in the wind...

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I'm using 7828 as well. Most guys are getting a actual BC of .71 with the 225.
If I can get 2800 fps or more, that thing shouldn't be pushed around much in the wind...

We've got a couple of hundred of them through the accumark already with 77 gr. 7828. They do 2750 fps in his rifle.
I like to take my 300rum out and give him crap because my 300rum will drive the 225 hdy to 3,000 fps with rl33.
His rifle worked with rl33 in certain conditions but didn't act stable with it so we stayed with 7828. Rl33 should take you to 2850-2900 fps if you can get stability out of it. The powder doesn't calm down until severely loaded.