Long range hunting comes down to 2 separate things wind and flight time

[Barbourcreek]

Flight time= how long is a bullet in the air before it strikes the animal to make sure that the animal is holding still long enough for the bullet to get there an example feeding

Wind deflection, reading the wind if you can't read wind you can't shoot long-range, ballistic rangefinders / solvers nowadays take care of all earth base and secondary effects and give you a shoot too but you still need to read the wind to tell the rangefinder program so it can give you the Wind holds
At Barbourcreek I teach you three tools to read wind this is one of them our Mirage reading technique is so accurate were able to hit golf balls at 1000 yards in some cases in one shot if not one shot usually we can hit it in 2 to 3 which is perfect for hunting (assuming you have correct gear and marksmanship skills) these 2 things need to be accounted for.

 

[comfisherman]

Maybe this is covered I the video(I'm on slow data remote access) but I'm curious about your guys opinion on time of flight. It's a point of debate in my friend group and part of the reason I still love my big boomers to decrease tof. That said it's obviously a different story in each situation. A bedded evening shot is far different than a meandering early morning feeding animal on a sunny hill.


Is there a rule of thumb you go for?

 

[Mikecr]

Something seems amiss with the idea that increasing muzzle velocity reduces wind drift.
Wind drift does not apply to time of flight, but instead to lag time.
Wind drift is directly tied to the drag that causes lag time, which a wind amplitude/vector applies to.
No lag time (no drag), then no wind drift (shooting in outer space), regardless of wind.

Drag goes up with velocity. Even with drag coefficients favoring high velocity, drag still is going up (often just at a lower rate).
When drag goes up, lag time goes up, then wind applies longer.

In my mind, reducing wind drift purely comes down to reducing/resisting drag.

 

[Barbourcreek]

Thanks for your input but TOF in my statement is only for the shooter to understand the animal needs to be still long enough for the bullet to get there based on range IE: 1000 yards 1.4 seconds flight time. I dont want folks Shooting at moving animals at LongRange.

I Was not referring in anyway about TOF having to do with wind.

I changed the title so no one is confused and groups them together. Hope this helps

 

[Barbourcreek]

Maybe this is covered I the video(I'm on slow data remote access) but I'm curious about your guys opinion on time of flight. It's a point of debate in my friend group and part of the reason I still love my big boomers to decrease tof. That said it's obviously a different story in each situation. A bedded evening shot is far different than a meandering early morning feeding animal on a sunny hill.


Is there a rule of thumb you go for?

I look at the range of the animal and know my flight time. At that point I make a decision if there is ample time for the bullet to get there. I work with the sig guys on input into the 8k and 10k. Thats why it gives you retained velocity and energy on impact. In the near future it will give you flight time and a few other things I taught them in class. Very smart and receptive folks there in the rangefinder department.

 

[dogbuster0006]

That's some impressive shooting fellas!

 

[ShtrRdy]

Very impressive. And good tips.

 

[Hugnot]

Seven more rounds fired with same accuracy would win any 1000 yard bench rest shoot.

 

[BrentM]

Maybe this is covered I the video(I'm on slow data remote access) but I'm curious about your guys opinion on time of flight. It's a point of debate in my friend group and part of the reason I still love my big boomers to decrease tof. That said it's obviously a different story in each situation. A bedded evening shot is far different than a meandering early morning feeding animal on a sunny hill.


Is there a rule of thumb you go for?

Tof can be accounted for if you are shooting lead and understand animal pace. A walking elk vs a walking deer etc. Shooting predators at long range is another story in itself. It really doesn't matter how big your boom stick is, tof is tof, and most fall between 1.1 to 1.6 at 1000. For me, a moving animal at that range is a no go. Usually they can be stopped with calls. When I stop a yote at that range I'm on the gun and ready to send it the instant it stops and looks. It may be your only opportunity

 

[kgunz11]

Something seems amiss with the idea that increasing muzzle velocity reduces wind drift.
Wind drift does not apply to time of flight, but instead to lag time.
Wind drift is directly tied to the drag that causes lag time, which a wind amplitude/vector applies to.
No lag time (no drag), then no wind drift (shooting in outer space), regardless of wind.

Drag goes up with velocity. Even with drag coefficients favoring high velocity, drag still is going up (often just at a lower rate).
When drag goes up, lag time goes up, then wind applies longer.

In my mind, reducing wind drift purely comes down to reducing/resisting drag.

Mike, I have to disagree. The less time a bullet is in the wind, the less it is affected by the wind.
A Berger 140gr Hybrid has a BC based on it's drag profile. That bullet fired out of a 6.5Creedmoor has more drift at 1000 yards than the same bullet fired out of a 6.5PRC that is shooting it 150fps faster. That's an inarguable fact that can be verified with any ballistics solver.

Wind drift and ToF are absolutely relative.

Also, you say "drag goes up with velocity". Actually, surface area and shape affect drag measurably, velocity does very, very little.

 

[brant89]

Something seems amiss with the idea that increasing muzzle velocity reduces wind drift.
Wind drift does not apply to time of flight, but instead to lag time.
Wind drift is directly tied to the drag that causes lag time, which a wind amplitude/vector applies to.
No lag time (no drag), then no wind drift (shooting in outer space), regardless of wind.

Drag goes up with velocity. Even with drag coefficients favoring high velocity, drag still is going up (often just at a lower rate).
When drag goes up, lag time goes up, then wind applies longer.

In my mind, reducing wind drift purely comes down to reducing/resisting drag.

Yes, wind drift is directly related to lag time and not TOF, and yes total drag is INCREASING with increased velocity, but the coefficient of drag (Cd) is DECREASING with an increase in velocity, which is why we see BC increase with an increased velocity. For the math nerds out there, the formula for CD illustrates why an increase in velocity results in a decreased Cd (velocity is squared in the denominator):

Cd = D / (A * .5 * r * V^2)


Here's a couple different ways to think about it:

First, lets pretend we have a hypothetical bullet that has a G1 BC of .550 above 2800fps, and a G1 BC of .500 below 2800fps, and the change in BC is abrupt (i.e. it is .550 @ 2800fps and .500 @2799fps). you can basically treat this bullet as two COMPLETELY different projectiles in these two different velocity brackets, and I think we can all agree that the one with the higher BC will necessarily experience less wind drift. So even if the velocity drops below 2800fps at some point in the bullets flight, it still experienced wind drift at the higher BC value for the portion of its flight that it was above the 2800fps threshold and would thus experience less wind drift during that portion of its flight time, which would ultimately lead to less wind drift over the entirety of its flight as well. Obviously this is an exaggerated example, but it serves to illustrate the concept.

Another way to illustrate it is to think of the bullet as a weather vane that always points directly into the resulting wind vector, which is a product of both the bullets forward velocity and crosswind component, and the bullet drag vector is parallel to the resulting wind vector. Therefore, anything we can do to decrease the angle of the resulting wind vector in relation to the line of sight will also decrease wind deflection. Given the same exact bullet, the only two ways this is possible is to either decrease the crosswind speed or INCREASE the forward velocity. This is again an oversimplification, but serves to illustrate the concept.

 

[Hugnot]

Shooting spinning bullets on the moon's surface would be quick & easy.

 

[kgunz11]

Yes, wind drift is directly related to lag time and not TOF, and yes total drag is INCREASING with increased velocity, but the coefficient of drag (Cd) is DECREASING with an increase in velocity, which is why we see BC increase with an increased velocity. For the math nerds out there, the formula for CD illustrates why an increase in velocity results in a decreased Cd (velocity is squared in the denominator):

Cd = D / (A * .5 * r * V^2)


Here's a couple different ways to think about it:

First, lets pretend we have a hypothetical bullet that has a G1 BC of .550 above 2800fps, and a G1 BC of .500 below 2800fps, and the change in BC is abrupt (i.e. it is .550 @ 2800fps and .500 @2799fps). you can basically treat this bullet as two COMPLETELY different projectiles in these two different velocity brackets, and I think we can all agree that the one with the higher BC will necessarily experience less wind drift. So even if the velocity drops below 2800fps at some point in the bullets flight, it still experienced wind drift at the higher BC value for the portion of its flight that it was above the 2800fps threshold and would thus experience less wind drift during that portion of its flight time, which would ultimately lead to less wind drift over the entirety of its flight as well. Obviously this is an exaggerated example, but it serves to illustrate the concept.

Another way to illustrate it is to think of the bullet as a weather vane that always points directly into the resulting wind vector, which is a product of both the bullets forward velocity and crosswind component, and the bullet drag vector is parallel to the resulting wind vector. Therefore, anything we can do to decrease the angle of the resulting wind vector in relation to the line of sight will also decrease wind deflection. Given the same exact bullet, the only two ways this is possible is to either decrease the crosswind speed or INCREASE the forward velocity. This is again an oversimplification, but serves to illustrate the concept.

ToF is a required part of the equation to determine "lag time". It's ToF in atmosphere minus ToF in no atmosphere. Lag Time is the resulting number, which means it very much has something to do with wind drift. It's a critical part of the equation to determine LT.

 

[brant89]

ToF is a required part of the equation to determine "lag time". It's ToF in atmosphere minus ToF in no atmosphere. Lag Time is the resulting number, which means it very much has something to do with wind drift. It's a critical part of the equation to determine LT.

I understand what lag time is and how it is calculated, but wind drift is still not DIRECTLY related to TOF even though TOF is part of the lag time equation. You can fire a low BC bullet at a higher velocity for a decreased TOF but an INCREASED lag time due to the lower BC, and that lower BC bullet with a shorter TOF will still have more wind drift. Plugging in numbers from JBM (200 yards, 10mph crosswind):

.284 195gr EOL @ 2700 MV = 1.8" wind drift , .232s TOF, .010 lag
.224 50gr Match @ 3600 MV = 5.4" wind drift, .197s TOF, .030 lag

Three times the lag time equals three times the wind drift, even though it's only 85% the TOF. Directly related to lag time, yes. Directly related to TOF, no.

This example might be what @Mikecr was alluding to in his comment.