Learning to deal with uncommon eye issues and choosing optics.

WildBillG

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Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
459
Location
Alberta
Got chatting with FTRShooter on the sticky in this section and mentioned my vission issues. He suggested I make a thread about eye issues and picking optics. A little history I have had diebetes for 45 years now and suffered some of the long term issues it brings. One of them it effects your vision if you are not as careful with your blood sugars as you should be. Well when you are 10 yrs old who wants to test their blood and watch every thing you eat. Then you turn into a teen and a young adult male bad news all around. At about 23yrs old I was diagnosed with retinopathy. Which means I had blood vessels growing onto my retina. Had them removed and all was good all of a sudden my left eye was hard to see through. More laser surgery but the vessel was over the main vision part no more being a left handed shooter. Several years later my right retina was falling off the DR said to wait but I wanted a second opinion. Before I could get it retina detached and I was sent to a specialist who attached it right away. My vision actually picked up and I was happy and actually watching my diabetes closely. How ever with all the laser surgery I have lost a lot periphial vision. Along with that my night vision is sliding too.
I have learned now that I need to pick higher end optics to see what others can see with a lot lower quality glass. In this time I have learned to set up my optics to tgeir best. In fact now it frustrates me when others assume their optics come preset set from the box to match their eyes. Not all assume this some are just afraid adjust them in case they wreck them. An example a friend got got a Nikon bino scope package deal at Cabela's he was so proud how clear his binos were. I looked through them and even with my bad left eye I could see they were not set up right. He went to the bathroom and I set them so both eyes focused the same. When he came back I said what do you now his answer they are twice as clear.
There must be other here that have vision issues how do you deal with them and choose your optics.
 

Barrelnut

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Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
4,258
Location
End of the Oregon Trail
Nothing close to the challenges you face, and, from one shooter to another, I pray for your health and ability to enjoy your sport for many years to come. But, I wear tri-focal glasses. Cannot see much far or near without them. Started when I was about 45. Bottom line is I have to be very conscious about, not only having my cheek in the same place on the stock, but my head angle matters a lot as well. I need to be looking thru the same section of my glasses all the time or reticle focus or parallax become an issue.
 

Orange Dust

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
1,586
Got chatting with FTRShooter on the sticky in this section and mentioned my vission issues. He suggested I make a thread about eye issues and picking optics. A little history I have had diebetes for 45 years now and suffered some of the long term issues it brings. One of them it effects your vision if you are not as careful with your blood sugars as you should be. Well when you are 10 yrs old who wants to test their blood and watch every thing you eat. Then you turn into a teen and a young adult male bad news all around. At about 23yrs old I was diagnosed with retinopathy. Which means I had blood vessels growing onto my retina. Had them removed and all was good all of a sudden my left eye was hard to see through. More laser surgery but the vessel was over the main vision part no more being a left handed shooter. Several years later my right retina was falling off the DR said to wait but I wanted a second opinion. Before I could get it retina detached and I was sent to a specialist who attached it right away. My vision actually picked up and I was happy and actually watching my diabetes closely. How ever with all the laser surgery I have lost a lot periphial vision. Along with that my night vision is sliding too.
I have learned now that I need to pick higher end optics to see what others can see with a lot lower quality glass. In this time I have learned to set up my optics to tgeir best. In fact now it frustrates me when others assume their optics come preset set from the box to match their eyes. Not all assume this some are just afraid adjust them in case they wreck them. An example a friend got got a Nikon bino scope package deal at Cabela's he was so proud how clear his binos were. I looked through them and even with my bad left eye I could see they were not set up right. He went to the bathroom and I set them so both eyes focused the same. When he came back I said what do you now his answer they are twice as clear.
There must be other here that have vision issues how do you deal with them and choose your optics.
I have a touch of retinopathy too. Eye Dr. says for me its from wearing contacts for 50 years, and not letting my eyes rest by going without them enough. You young folks beware!! Anyway, I have some of the same problems for different reasons. The one thing I learned is coatings matter, and they matter greatly. Last Summer I bought a new scope. I looked at everything besides TT. Couldn't get my hands on one. I did try March, NF, SB, Leica, Swaro, and Kahles. Took all of them out at sundown. For me, the answer was a k525i. It was not only brighter, I could see detail better. Scientific? Of course not. Your eyes could really care less about specs when you are looking at $3-4k optics. If they all seem the same, keep looking. There is a brand that will stand out for your eyes. I think this holds true weather you are looking at optics that are $500 or $5k. Determine a budget, and compare brands in your price range, with the features you need. If you compare them fairly, trust your eyes. It is true that the worse my eyes get, the more I have to spend on optics to see well. Optics do seem to be one of the few things left in this world where you still get what you pay for, for the most part. Having to spend more is just part of getting old, I guess. I will point out that my knowledge of optics is a weakness compared to other areas of our sport. As my eyes have become worse, I have been very hungry to learn everything I can about them. All of a sudden it has become very important to me. I have to get the most out of them I can to shoot well anymore.
 

WildBillG

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Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
459
Location
Alberta
I imagine not a lot of people know that about contacts and continued use. That is some real good information OrangeDust.
 

Orange Dust

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Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
1,586
Everyone I've talked to that knows more than me says German glass is the only answer for old eyes. Then they say compare coatings for the best match to them. NF and March were the worst for me, so there could be something to that. Don't know why, they are very high quality.
 

FTRshooter

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Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
58
Location
Texas
The coating thing is not a bad issue. I'm sure we're all aware that lenses require multiple coatings to deal with the various wavelengths that compose visible light coming through the riflescope. Coatings are used to minimize if not eliminate the amount of light reflected back by the air-glass boundary. Uncoated glass reflects back about 5% of the incoming light for each air-glass boundary. You can see how that would quickly eat up the light after several lenses.

Now, I know virtually nothing about how coating is performed; I've read stuff and seen some videos so I understand the concept but I have 0 details, so I'm safe in saying I know virtually nothing about it. That said, it is my understanding that coating is something that is "proprietary" to whomever performs the task and that it can be adjusted, tweaked or whatever depending on what one is trying to achieve. I'm sure there are trade-offs and limitations and so on.

It's also important to understand that people's vision varies quite a bit. We have been talking so far about lens shape and acuity, let me bring up another aspect, color perception. We also call this "color blindness" or some other funny names such as "dad, what color do you see here?"

There are essentially two major types of color deficiency, which give us protans and deutans. I'm one of the former ones. This is also known as red-green color blindness, but it has a lot of other fun issues. The deutans are also red-green color blind but they have different side issues. There are three types of rods that detect a specific color in the retina; red, green and blue rods. Protans don't detect red well enough and deutans don't detect green well enough. They make up about 10% of the population. There are also tritans, who have blue rod deficiencies but those are much rarer at 1%. Then of course, there are those who don't see ANY color, everything is a shade of gray.

There are many places on the internet where you can do a quick test of your color vision and see if you're normal or what ails you.

That said, there is a lot more than coatings to discuss. When you say, this or that scope is fine and that one and the other are terrible, you have to be much more specific and explain what you are experiencing and what the difference is between one and the other.

One aspect that I found quite important for me was the use of ED glass in the riflescope. This has the effect of reducing chromatic aberration, the color bleeding that you see as you move away from dead center on the lens. When I went from NF NXS to my March-X, I noticed that the colors were popping a lot more. The rings on the target face were no longer furry, they were much crisper. The contrast was excellent. I am thinking that as a protan, the better separation of the colors worked in my favor a little bit.

When I further upgraded from my March-X with ED glass to my March-X with High Master Super-ED glass, I found that contrast increased a little more and the colors were popping more. It's difficult to explain to someone who's never seen it, but when I point out what to expect looking through the scope and comparing to another, people see it.

That said, if one brand works well for you or another one simply doesn't cut it for you; you do what's good for you.

Also, when people talk about German glass Vs other glass, take that with a huge brick of salt. Glass provenance is a big shell game and it's more than just the glass, it's also the coating, the grinding and so and so on. You would be surprised to see where some of the stuff originates from. Don't rely on any of that, do try out as many as you can before buying. And for gosh sakes, do it under proper conditions.
 

FTRshooter

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Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
58
Location
Texas
I wear glasses, have been doing so for over 50 years. No-line bi-focals for over 20 years. Never did get into contact lenses; the eyeglasses worked well in covering my ugly mug. It's also a good idea to talk to your optometrist when getting glasses to explain that you're a shooter and maybe get a specific setup. Remember, you want to be able to see the reticle through the eyepiece in front of your nose. You're not trying to focus on an object 1000 yards away unaided.
 

WildBillG

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
459
Location
Alberta
Not sure if this is true but I heard that Zeiss actually owns the rights to Shcott glass not sure if I spelled that right. Any way we know a lot of companies use that glass and thus pay Zeiss a royalty each time.
FTR how long was is between upgrading your March scopes. Also did you keep your old one to compare them side by side. I would like to look through a March scope but I am not sure they are sold here in Canada. I have seen the Tangent Theta scope and looked through them but like Schmidt and Bender they are out side of my price range. As you mention FTR the coatings and glass quality are what make or break an optic. An optic with poor glass and good coatings will still lag behind one with top of coatings and glass. All of this said I think it is getting harder for companies to try and pass off junk and stay alive in the market. There are those out there though who have no idea what clear sharp optics are. They also believe that a pair of 10x24 Bushnell mini binos that sell for 30 dollars are the best thing they have ever seen. I bought a pair of Swarovski 10x42 EL's paid 2 grand for them. I would let others look through them to see what they thought and the answer was always man those are clear you must have paid 500 dollars for them. My thought was I would have bought 4 pair at that price. I think those Swaro's were brighter and sharper then the Zeiss Victory range finding pair I replaced them with.
 

sp6x6

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
3,832
Location
NW MT
Wild Bill,Youll hear this on here all time on optics,what your eye sees.My mark 5 leo is much clearer than my March 52 vrs 56.March 6 years old leo new.I can see the small barbes on fence 1/4 clear with leo not with March. In normal light my SS is just as good.My vortex 15x50 are better for glassing than my 10x32 el,better at detail and better at low light for a fraction the cost,but size and weight Ive carried my els long as they been out 10-15 years? Friend that shot record setting bench tried a S&B went back to his NF.He has multiple world records.The lower or mid range have really improved over the years.I have leo,swaro,ziess,vortex,bushnel,SS,march,lieca,and Kowa,and vectronix. My old ziess classic 10x42 I thought ran with my same 10x42 swaro el at time.
 

kiwikid

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Messages
505
Location
New Zealand
WildBillG you are correct in saying the Carl Zeiss own Schott Glass. I see that you are based in Alberta, are you going to the AACCA Calgary Gun Show on the 10th and 11th of April 2020? I see there is a company that is going to have March scopes there. It appears you can email them at
[email protected] for details.
 

sp6x6

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Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
3,832
Location
NW MT
Valdada, shcott glass,friend has the 4x30x56 recon, good glass
 

tony d willIiams

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Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
145
Location
San Bernardino Mountains
The coating thing is not a bad issue. I'm sure we're all aware that lenses require multiple coatings to deal with the various wavelengths that compose visible light coming through the riflescope. Coatings are used to minimize if not eliminate the amount of light reflected back by the air-glass boundary. Uncoated glass reflects back about 5% of the incoming light for each air-glass boundary. You can see how that would quickly eat up the light after several lenses.

Now, I know virtually nothing about how coating is performed; I've read stuff and seen some videos so I understand the concept but I have 0 details, so I'm safe in saying I know virtually nothing about it. That said, it is my understanding that coating is something that is "proprietary" to whomever performs the task and that it can be adjusted, tweaked or whatever depending on what one is trying to achieve. I'm sure there are trade-offs and limitations and so on.

It's also important to understand that people's vision varies quite a bit. We have been talking so far about lens shape and acuity, let me bring up another aspect, color perception. We also call this "color blindness" or some other funny names such as "dad, what color do you see here?"

There are essentially two major types of color deficiency, which give us protans and deutans. I'm one of the former ones. This is also known as red-green color blindness, but it has a lot of other fun issues. The deutans are also red-green color blind but they have different side issues. There are three types of rods that detect a specific color in the retina; red, green and blue rods. Protans don't detect red well enough and deutans don't detect green well enough. They make up about 10% of the population. There are also tritans, who have blue rod deficiencies but those are much rarer at 1%. Then of course, there are those who don't see ANY color, everything is a shade of gray.

There are many places on the internet where you can do a quick test of your color vision and see if you're normal or what ails you.

That said, there is a lot more than coatings to discuss. When you say, this or that scope is fine and that one and the other are terrible, you have to be much more specific and explain what you are experiencing and what the difference is between one and the other.

One aspect that I found quite important for me was the use of ED glass in the riflescope. This has the effect of reducing chromatic aberration, the color bleeding that you see as you move away from dead center on the lens. When I went from NF NXS to my March-X, I noticed that the colors were popping a lot more. The rings on the target face were no longer furry, they were much crisper. The contrast was excellent. I am thinking that as a protan, the better separation of the colors worked in my favor a little bit.

When I further upgraded from my March-X with ED glass to my March-X with High Master Super-ED glass, I found that contrast increased a little more and the colors were popping more. It's difficult to explain to someone who's never seen it, but when I point out what to expect looking through the scope and comparing to another, people see it.

That said, if one brand works well for you or another one simply doesn't cut it for you; you do what's good for you.

Also, when people talk about German glass Vs other glass, take that with a huge brick of salt. Glass provenance is a big shell game and it's more than just the glass, it's also the coating, the grinding and so and so on. You would be surprised to see where some of the stuff originates from. Don't rely on any of that, do try out as many as you can before buying. And for gosh sakes, do it under proper conditions.
Thank you,
I have noticed that the glass I like other shooters have a lot of difficulty seeing through and shooting properly, I mean with accuracy.
 

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