Learn To Maximize Your 6.5 Creedmoor Potential

No, not that I recall. That figure was speaking in generalities to the data I see people advertising regularly. It is often 20k-30k over pressure.


Oh I'm well aware that the "half moa all day" crowd just loves the stuff. In my testing, RL26 hit 3107fps with a 140EH before I hit pressure. Guess what? H4831SC hit 3130fps. I've repeatedly seen this with 6.5 PRC's. H4831SC rivals, or often beats RL26 on velocity... and the H4831SC universally shoots better and is more stable across the life of the barrel.


Look at the data, most of which I collected while streaming live on youtube. Look at how many times RL26 is beat by H4831SC. Look at how many times N560 and N565 is right there with it. Look at the velocities I'm reporting pressure at, compared to the loads you see people claiming around here all the time.

From an accuracy and precision standpoint, I do not use Alliant powders in virtually anything. This RL26 magic pixie dust myth is very often being pushed by people that have not tried anything else, or at least haven't tried much else. They CERTAINLY have not been comparing performance on target. It's very likely they haven't been comparing bore stability, precision and accuracy stability across a long string of fire, resilience to adverse conditions, or how many rounds can be fired while maintaining accuracy and precision before cleaning is required.

Let me make this as clear as I can. In every rifle, with every cartridge, with every barrel... literally everything I've tested... Hodgdon and Vihtavuori produce the best accuracy and precision. (and most often velocity too) Not once have I had an Alliant powder beat them in testing on the target.

So Kyle will be happy that I am not eating up his RL powder supply.


It's not worth it, and it can't be done safely. Look at the AB mobile example I showed at the tail end of the video. 100fps extra velocity equals about 75ft lbs of energy on the 1000yd firing solution I was using as an example. Barely a tenth of a mil of wind difference from 2.0 mils of wind at the "slow" velocity. Is that really worth being on the ragged edge of pressure, then having some rain or melted snow get into your chamber and grenade your gun? Lock your bolt shut on the first round fired? Cause you to miss as a result of wild POI shift due to massive overpressure? Pierce a primer, welding your firing pin to your bolt body? Pierce a primer and put a jet of hot gas and metal into your eye that's conveniently sitting behind your bolt shroud/cocking piece pathway? THAT is why it can't be done safely, because all that's required for a severely negative result is for mother nature or other variables to intercede at an inopportune time. Then, kaboom.

Kyle isn't responsible. Kyle lives on the edge. Kyle doesn't care about anything.

The way I do things and recommend others do things was born from over 30 years of handloading experience and over 15 years of advising shooters professionally. What I recommend is designed to set a shooter up for the best chance of things going right all the time, every time, with as much room for error as possible. It takes a tremendous amount of time, effort, and money to get the kind of experience required to make those recommendations possible.

This next bit isn't pointed directly at you @cajun
I certainly do not have any obligation to defend against or debate with idiotic anonymous internet personalities with comparatively zero experience.

Kyle doesn't need any experience. All he has to do is read the internet.

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Ok. Unlike you I do not have a youtube channel. But I have been reloading for over 40 years. I still have both eyes and all my digits. I am not one to go out on a limb and push the envelope by nature. I tend to stay within published data unless working with a wildcat of course. One of my reloading mentors was a good friends dad who basically taught me what not to do lol. This guy was an old wildcatter who loved to push the envelope. Of course back in the 80's reloading data wasnt quite so lawyered up. I saw him lock up more than a few actions. Thankfully he never hurt himself and if I showed you his old data sheets you would poop your pants.

So when I saw the internet chatter on R26 I was very skeptical. There was no published data. Then Berger put out 135 data which showed 2977 from a 24" barrel. I emailed. Yes it's quick load data but we have shot it and found it safe or we wouldn't publish the data. So I had a buddy run QL at 63091 max with a 143 hornady. 48.5 grains was 3017. I ran a one shot ladder working up looking for pressure signs. At 48.5 the chrono read 3011. Now even though this load is predicted to be under max it is a warm load. I would never run this hot for the reasons you mentioned. However if you drop down 100 fps I feel this would be a safe load. Wether it's worth doing is a personal thing. If 150 fps was not worth it why shoot a prc or a 6.5 284.

Now you claim R 26 was no faster than other powders tested. That is your experience. However in mine it is not. Also in any reloading data I look at R26 is faster than H4831 in 6.5 PRC(Hornady) or 280 AI (Nosler). In fact where it is listed it is usually 50-100 fps faster than most of the powders listed. Again look at Hornady's Prc and Bergers 135 data. So I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility that R 26 could be 100 fps faster than any listed powder in the creed. Is it worth it. Maybe maybe not. I agree the 260 dude with a 22" in your video is out his mind lol. Now as for me I'm still shooting 42 grains H 4350 at 2750 ish because it's stupid accurate. I'm hoping my buddy will run some pressure tests with R26 and his bullets in the near future.
 
Ok. Unlike you I do not have a youtube channel. But I have been reloading for over 40 years. I still have both eyes and all my digits. I am not one to go out on a limb and push the envelope by nature. I tend to stay within published data unless working with a wildcat of course. One of my reloading mentors was a good friends dad who basically taught me what not to do lol. This guy was an old wildcatter who loved to push the envelope. Of course back in the 80's reloading data wasnt quite so lawyered up. I saw him lock up more than a few actions. Thankfully he never hurt himself and if I showed you his old data sheets you would poop your pants.

So when I saw the internet chatter on R26 I was very skeptical. There was no published data. Then Berger put out 135 data which showed 2977 from a 24" barrel. I emailed. Yes it's quick load data but we have shot it and found it safe or we wouldn't publish the data. So I had a buddy run QL at 63091 max with a 143 hornady. 48.5 grains was 3017. I ran a one shot ladder working up looking for pressure signs. At 48.5 the chrono read 3011. Now even though this load is predicted to be under max it is a warm load. I would never run this hot for the reasons you mentioned. However if you drop down 100 fps I feel this would be a safe load. Wether it's worth doing is a personal thing. If 150 fps was not worth it why shoot a prc or a 6.5 284.

Now you claim R 26 was no faster than other powders tested. That is your experience. However in mine it is not. Also in any reloading data I look at R26 is faster than H4831 in 6.5 PRC(Hornady) or 280 AI (Nosler). In fact where it is listed it is usually 50-100 fps faster than most of the powders listed. Again look at Hornady's Prc and Bergers 135 data. So I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility that R 26 could be 100 fps faster than any listed powder in the creed. Is it worth it. Maybe maybe not. I agree the 260 dude with a 22" in your video is out his mind lol. Now as for me I'm still shooting 42 grains H 4350 at 2750 ish because it's stupid accurate. I'm hoping my buddy will run some pressure tests with R26 and his bullets in the near future.
I think you might misunderstand. I'm not claiming I've never seen RL powders produce high velocities. I've seen it a few times. However, never ONCE without penalty. ...and there are always other powders that produce similar velocities. Pressure is pressure.

Also, there's a big difference between grabbing 100fps by running a slow node in a much larger cartridge than grabbing 100fps by running a heavy charge in a lesser cartridge. The difference between a 6.5 creed and a 6.5 PRC is typically a couple hundred FPS, when run responsibly. That's not nearly as trival as 100fps.

There will always be anomalies due to individual cases of fast/slow barrels, fast/slow lot numbers of powder, or oversize/undersize bullets which will clutter up a data set. However, once you get enough sample size across a long enough period of time... the trends are obvious to see.

The main point of contention here is that most people are getting nowhere near the required experience before making proclamations about what certain components will produce. Were my ability to detect where pressure really lives in a combination of components... I'd be reporting much higher velocities right along with everyone else. Yet with the methods I've developed, I can see the adverse affects of pressure in my testing no matter how subtle it tries to be. That allows me the benefit of seeing things for what they actually are, versus what they may appear to be at first.

I get where you're coming from. However, I think if you keep going down that path with RL stuff... maybe for 3-4 barrels worth or so... then I think you'll remember this thread. You'll come back to it and think "oh, that's what he was talking about." ;)

BTW, the fact that I have a youtube channel means nothing to what we're discussing. What matters is my round count, and how much time/effort/money I put into all of this.

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I use available, cheap (under $37 per LB), & suitable powders for my 6.5 CM. The 6.5 CM has a limited case capacity & not much bulky extruded slow burning powders will fit. I shoot lots of 6.5 120 ELDM bullets with 47.0 grains of RS Hunter with velocities close to 3,000. Stocks of small rifle primers are much more abundant than large rifle primers. Small rifle primer of choice for RS Hunter & StaBall is the Rem 7 1/2. AA 4350 gives good result with near 100% capacity with 130's & CCI 41's. Win StaBall has proven to be a good powder in the 6.5CM with 130 ELDM's. Attached is a prelim run of 5, accuracy good considering Magneto Speed hanging off barrel; five rounds not enough for good stats but will plan to shoot & chony more when it warms up. Easy smooth bolt opening & no enlarged primer pockets or primer cratering.

Extruded powders slower than the 4350's are saved for 6.5-06 loads.

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In my 6.5X47 Lapua RL 15 was the velocity champion with 130's. I would use it or RL 15.5 with 100's against rodents in the 6.5 CM.
 
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I've checked published data against ql and Gordon with the majority being over pressure in results. When I used max data and their rate was 106% I put it in as 106, but the charge was(at times) several grains less. Next I adjusted burn rate to meet their fill and velocity. It might hit 2 of 3, but never all 3 agreeing. Gordon's is newer to me and still have some learning to do on that program. You can give me crap about my grammar, but don't touch my numbers! Science.........uhhh... I mean English ;):rolleyes:🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
Ya'll going to make me buy a pressure trace set up lol. It's not that much in the grand scheme. Who knows maybe I'll put it on you tube.
 
Ya'll going to make me buy a pressure trace set up lol. It's not that much in the grand scheme. Who knows maybe I'll put it on you tube.
The interest runs out quick when it confirms pressure shows up at the same pressure on the brass every time but pressure under the curve changes things. I never was able to run brass even 5K over pressure without very obvious pressure signs. I was able to keep the pressure up for more time. It's a pain to swap and is a pain to use one short chambering and you still have to calibrate it to the cartridge.
 
The interest runs out quick when it confirms pressure shows up at the same pressure on the brass every time but pressure under the curve changes things. I never was able to run brass even 5K over pressure without very obvious pressure signs. I was able to keep the pressure up for more time. It's a pain to swap and is a pain to use one short chambering and you still have to calibrate it to the cartridge.
Good info. Thanks. Area under the curve is why some powders can produce more velocity at the same peak pressure.
 
@orkan

I am in no way a supporter of the 2950 FPS creed loads and have never tried anything but H4350 in my creed. My question is, these guys that are pushing PRC speeds with RL26 speeds in the creed, are they ignoring typical pressure signs or do they just not show up? I know, as you mentioned, they have to be crazy high in PSI. At the pressures and velocities mentioned, wouldn't there have to be heavy swipe marks, heavy bolt lift, even blown primers? Or does the pressure curve of the RL26 hide that? I know as soon as i touch pressure with H4350, N565, varget, etc. i start seeing slight pressure signs that are easily identified.
 
@orkan

I am in no way a supporter of the 2950 FPS creed loads and have never tried anything but H4350 in my creed. My question is, these guys that are pushing PRC speeds with RL26 speeds in the creed, are they ignoring typical pressure signs or do they just not show up? I know, as you mentioned, they have to be crazy high in PSI. At the pressures and velocities mentioned, wouldn't there have to be heavy swipe marks, heavy bolt lift, even blown primers? Or does the pressure curve of the RL26 hide that? I know as soon as i touch pressure with H4350, N565, varget, etc. i start seeing slight pressure signs that are easily identifie
Try some STABALL65 to get some more velocity (no, not 2950) than H4350
 
Primers sure make a difference with R#26. We reload at the range. CCI 250 or Fed 215 seems to be what my 243 Win/100g@3150 and 6.5x55/127g Barnes long range really accurate and super fast(3150). 7 Mag with 175g LRAB with R#26, fed 215 is 3050 fps, tiny clover leaf groups in the low 3's and high 2's.

A Pard was trying 26 in his Creed with 140's and we were using a 10" drop tube and a mag primer for another 100 fps over my H4350 load, not worth the trouble.

If I were wanting to max out the velocity/pressure with accuracy, tops on the list would be lapua brass with large rifle primer, first and foremost.
 
@orkan

I am in no way a supporter of the 2950 FPS creed loads and have never tried anything but H4350 in my creed. My question is, these guys that are pushing PRC speeds with RL26 speeds in the creed, are they ignoring typical pressure signs or do they just not show up? I know, as you mentioned, they have to be crazy high in PSI. At the pressures and velocities mentioned, wouldn't there have to be heavy swipe marks, heavy bolt lift, even blown primers? Or does the pressure curve of the RL26 hide that? I know as soon as i touch pressure with H4350, N565, varget, etc. i start seeing slight pressure signs that are easily identified.
I've not had RL26 consistently outperform other powders, and pressure signs show up pretty consistently still... so I couldn't venture a guess what other people are doing.

I can only say during my mentorship sessions, the most common thing that happens is pressure signs that are readily apparent to me, but seemingly being missed by the person I'm mentoring. No amount of high definition video or imagery seems to change this outcome much. However, the signs I see become apparent to the shooter... after I point them out in a detailed fashion.


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