Is this where muzzleloading is going?!

[Glenn Tullius]

I stopped at a small gun shop yesterday, and looked at a "muzzleloader/rifle" he builds on his custom bolt action. You put a primer in something that looks like a shell holder off my press, insert it into the bolt face and close the bolt action. It had a Bell and Carlson stock, TriggerTech trigger, and a 26" semi-bull stainless steel barrel. You pour the powder, 4198 i think, or something like that, and push a 327 grain, very steep pointed custom bullet ($1.25 each, nothing else can be substituted because of the bore fit) effortlessly down the tube and shoot.

With a long range scope, this combo shoots a chronographed bullet at 3,080 feet per second! He said the effective range for elk is 750 YARDS! Yes, it's not for the "average guy"...$4,750.00 each, cash money, sans scope of course.

So is this where Muzzleloading is going? Is this going to be the new definition of a "Primitive Weapon?"

I have no dog in this hunt, I tried it, it's ok, old age and eyesight took me out of the game with iron sights.

 

[comfisherman]

Judging by the " nm bans muzzle loader scopes" thus ought to get some fiery response.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

When I grew up in PA there were several seasons for DEER.
Bow season with log bow don't think they had modern cross bows back then.
Pistol Season
Muzzle Loader iron sight Black powder season - everyone used flint lock or caps.
BUCK DEER Season
Doe season with a permit (horns could not be more than 3") if a buck was shot.
Each season was several days to two weeks, No Sunday Hunting.

Now there are seasons for every gender, age group, disability, and God only know what firearms are legal, Crossbows shooting 500fps and then XBOWS Bolts shot with air as the propellant

I guess the DNR wants more people to hunt that way they charge more for specialty licenses.

 

[Glenn Tullius]

Judging by the " nm bans muzzle loader scopes" thus ought to get some fiery response.

I'm not trying to start an argument or a ****storm. I was just absolutely astonished at what is now available to "guaranteed to get your elk" at 750 yards with a MZ. I'm not bad mouthing it or promoting it, just making some info available on the current state of the art technology available I guess.

 

[Glenn Tullius]

When I grew up in PA there were several seasons for DEER.
Bow season with log bow don't think they had modern cross bows back then.
Pistol Season
Muzzle Loader iron sight Black powder season - everyone used flint lock or caps.
BUCK DEER Season
Doe season with a permit (horns could not be more than 3") if a buck was shot.
Each season was several days to two weeks, No Sunday Hunting.

Now there are seasons for every gender, age group, disability, and God only know what firearms are legal, Crossbows shooting 500fps and then XBOWS Bolts shot with air as the propellant

I guess the DNR wants more people to hunt that way they charge more for specialty licenses.

and don't forget the two shot (two arrows) crossbow! Yikes!

 

[Ucsdryder]

But but but….they only shoot 200 yards.

 

[Barrelnut]

Believe they are called smokeless muzzleloaders and have quite the following these days. Long range capable all day long.

Check this thread out. there are some fine examples in it.

Let’s see those Smokeless builds!!

Hey, folks! Just got my first smokeless muzzleloader into action today (100 yard sight-in) and since the season is upon us I thought it would be cool to start a ‘smokeless thread’. SO, LET’S SEE THOSE BUILDS 😁! Mine is a Jeff Hankins conversion from CVA Scout .45-70 to smokeless muzzleloader...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[Starbuck]

I've been trying to squeeze the most out of ML's for a couple of decades. Without seeing the ballistics of the bullet it's launching or the powder charge, it's hard to say, but IME 750yds is a stretch as far as retained velocity and, by extension, terminal performance of the bullet. I guess, if it's starting at 3k it would get you there. Further, I've read that they used to tip buffalos over at 500+ with 45-70's and the like.

With my current efforts, I'd put max effective range somewhere in the 450 range, give or take. This is with 130 grn BH and various 45 cal projectiles, so velocities are less than what the OP posted. Beyond 400, the bullets I've used - which is most of the more modern ML bullets - really loose velocity and arc back to the earth so steeply that exact range becomes hyper critical. The other issue with an ML is that there's not really an ability to correct for a miss or poor hit on the first shot.

I stick with BH over smokeless because some states disallow smokeless. For the same reason I stick with .45 caliber projectiles. Certainly, dropping down in caliber and using smokeless is going to help the cause.

As far as where this is all going . . . I hunt special seasons with the most capable equipment I can get because they're there and I like to get out. But it is getting ridiculous with all the cross bows and long range ML's. At what point is it so close to using a traditional rifle that season distinction is absurd?

If they want to pare the special seasons down to traditional bows and open sighted ML's, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I also wouldn't mind making it so that deer season is deer season, and you fill the tag how you want. If they want to spread pressure out, make it so that you have to apply for a week or time period.

 

[comfisherman]

But but but….they only shoot 200 yards.

That's why they need the special season dontcha know.

They are wonders of engineering and rule intent bending. Essentially slow single shots.

On the flip side, it doesn't shock me when there is pushback against their use.

 

[Varmint Hunter]

"Muzzleloading" has become too broad of a term and doesn't necessarily fit with the original intent of "muzzleloading" or "primitive arms" seasons.

IMO, they should have a primitive arms season, and just decide how primitive they want the firearms (or other devices) to be. Every other modern concoction should be allowed during the regular firearms season so that there is a distinction between the two seasons. Allowing smokeless muzzleloaders which are capable of shooting several hundreds of yards just blurs the distinction and causes the controversy.

If the game commission allows a special (and often early) season for a limited range device, then they need to better control the parameters. I like hunting with my muzzleloader and use a scope and BH substitutes but if the rules limited the season to open sights and black powder, I'd be fine with that. It puts everyone hunting that nseason on an equal footing.

Just my thoughts and I'm sure that some will disagree.

 

[Ucsdryder]

"Muzzleloading" has become too broad of a term and doesn't necessarily fit with the original intent of "muzzleloading" or "primitive arms" seasons.

IMO, they should have a primitive arms season, and just decide how primitive they want the firearms (or other devices) to be. Every other modern concoction should be allowed during the regular firearms season so that there is a distinction between the two seasons. Allowing smokeless muzzleloaders which are capable of shooting several hundreds of yards just blurs the distinction and causes the controversy.

If the game commission allows a special (and often early) season for a limited range device, then they need to better control the parameters. I like hunting with my muzzleloader and use a scope and BH substitutes but if the rules limited the season to open sights and black powder, I'd be fine with that. It puts everyone hunting that nseason on an equal footing.

Just my thoughts and I'm sure that some will disagree.

Colorado defines it as a primitive season. I don't think that it is primitive enough for archery or muzzleloader. I think technology has gone too far on both of them to be considered
primitive. Colorado is more restrictive than many states, but in my opinion, not restrictive enough. I would like to see them getting rid of compound bows, and make all muzzleloaders flintlocks. Maybe split archery and muzzleloader into different units, some that are like they are now, and some that are truly primitive. It would be pretty fun to hunt a unit that all seasons are more restrictive. I bet the age class would be awesome in a few years if rifle was restricted too.

 

[Rick Richard]

When I grew up in PA there were several seasons for DEER.
Bow season with log bow don't think they had modern cross bows back then.
Pistol Season
Muzzle Loader iron sight Black powder season - everyone used flint lock or caps.
BUCK DEER Season
Doe season with a permit (horns could not be more than 3") if a buck was shot.
Each season was several days to two weeks, No Sunday Hunting.

Now there are seasons for every gender, age group, disability, and God only know what firearms are legal, Crossbows shooting 500fps and then XBOWS Bolts shot with air as the propellant

I guess the DNR wants more people to hunt that way they charge more for specialty licenses.

Being pushed by the insurance companies to reduce the deer herd…too many auto claims due to deer collisions.

 

[asd9055]

I stopped at a small gun shop yesterday, and looked at a "muzzleloader/rifle" he builds on his custom bolt action. You put a primer in something that looks like a shell holder off my press, insert it into the bolt face and close the bolt action. It had a Bell and Carlson stock, TriggerTech trigger, and a 26" semi-bull stainless steel barrel. You pour the powder, 4198 i think, or something like that, and push a 327 grain, very steep pointed custom bullet ($1.25 each, nothing else can be substituted because of the bore fit) effortlessly down the tube and shoot.

With a long range scope, this combo shoots a chronographed bullet at 3,080 feet per second! He said the effective range for elk is 750 YARDS! Yes, it's not for the "average guy"...$4,750.00 each, cash money, sans scope of course.

So is this where Muzzleloading is going? Is this going to be the new definition of a "Primitive Weapon?"

I have no dog in this hunt, I tried it, it's ok, old age and eyesight took me out of the game with iron sights.

My understanding is NOT legal to hunt in Texas.

 

[birddog 68]

Pennsylvania late season muzzleloader is flintlock only. The way it should be.
Nothing wrong with using these new muzzleloaders but definitely shouldn't be considered a primitive weapon with a scope, 3000 fps and a fail proof ignition.