Is it just in my head?

[Bret GRAVELINE Graveline]

Without any technical evidence, I'd say yes, I used to be a hardcore prairie dog nut, every year for ten or so years there was a gathering of aficionados called the conference, i believe there were 72 attendees each year, I was always playing, adding and deleting different calibers in a search of nothing in particular, a list of what could be found in my prairie dog Arsenal was something in a 17 or 204, always a 223, a 22 BR, maybe a 22-250 or a 22-250 AI, a 220 swift, a swift AI, a 22 cheetah, a 6-284, a 25-06, and a 6.5-284, in addition whenever I visited the local rifle range I was likely to not only have a selection of varmint rifles but something along the line of a STW a 338 or maybe a 416 or 458 something, but whenever I pulled the trigger on the 22 BR didn't matter if I was at the range or out on the prairie everyone would take notice of the BR when I fired it, I don't recall the exact charge weight but it was a max charge of AA 2230 and a 40 gr slug, velocity were well over 4000 fps but so were the larger cased 22's I was using, but that BR was just plain obnoxious.

 

[nwhunter]

For example, the 375 Weatherby switches what it likes between H4350 and Win 760, in any bullet weight, we are talking a difference in charge weight of between 1g and max of 3g.
Velocities are also very similar, BUT the snappier recoil comes from H4350 every single time, not once has it been the opposite.
The exact same phenomenon occurs with these same powders in 257 Bob and 257 AI, 25-06 and 338-06, so it is not a single occurrence, it is EVERY TIME. My buddies 30-06 experiences the same and he switched to Varget to reduce the felt recoil from H4350….the difference is night and day and it feels like a different gun.
Have had people comment about it when shooting my different loads in the 375 Weatherby, they notice the harsher recoil from H4350 and are often surprised.

Cheers.

This brings up load density. I use both w760 and h4350 but have never did a comparison in the same cartridge. W760 will load much more powder in a same size case than h4350. Both powders are very close on a burn rate chart. H4350 would fill a case more than w760. In my 338/06 I can load 67 grains of w760 behind a 186 grain hammer with out showing any pressure signs, or being compressed. I would struggle to load 60 brains of extruded h4350 in a case.

 

[skipglo]

My 375 H&H has more of a push where as my 338 LM has more of a kick both shooting 300 grn

Different guns Different weights of guns =different felt recoil! Not apples to apples.

 

[blueprairiedog]

I think powder is a big difference.try loading for a rifle cartridge in a pistol and you will notice it more I use h335 in 7mm tcu because everything else I tried kicked to hard for me i also notice a difference in 280 Remington with powders in the 4064-4895 range or is it just me

 

[asd9055]

Different guns Different weights of guns =different felt recoil! Not apples to apples.

You are correct sir, not apples to apples! But I still believe burn rate has an effect on whether is is a "push" or a "kick"
Maybe someday I will weigh those guns...bet the weight will be close

 

[skipglo]

You are correct sir, not apples to apples! But I still believe burn rate has an effect on whether is is a "push" or a "kick"
Maybe someday I will weigh those guns...bet the weight will be close

Burn rate I would also agree! Case capacity from one powder to the next another one...the whole reason of having approx. 140 Different powders today...is to enhance performance so obviously felt recoil will change dramatically based on selection and compressed loads. Just me!

 

[jessej]

Do some powders produce snappier recoil and crack", and others produce more a big push with a boom? Out of the same gun with the same weight bullet?

Yes.

I have a .338 Lapua that can do similar speed on 300 grain berger with either retumbo or H1000 with adjusted load. The h1000 feels far more snappy to me.

I have the exact findings in my lapua.

 

[Reelamin]

I think they do if and when all things are equal. No way can people compare from different firearms to the next IMO. What I have experienced is it is barely noticeable and to usually only to 1-2 very experienced shooters in a controlled environment. When manufacturers claims of defying the laws of physics are regurgitated by the ignorant I first laugh then prove them wrong if the person is willing.

 

[MagnumManiac]

This brings up load density. I use both w760 and h4350 but have never did a comparison in the same cartridge. W760 will load much more powder in a same size case than h4350. Both powders are very close on a burn rate chart. H4350 would fill a case more than w760. In my 338/06 I can load 67 grains of w760 behind a 186 grain hammer with out showing any pressure signs, or being compressed. I would struggle to load 60 brains of extruded h4350 in a case.

Not in the case of the 375 Weatherby….
The loads in question are both compressed.
One load is 89g (760) and the other load is 91g (H4350). Both running the same pressure, yes I have pressure testing equipment.
You cannot tell me this is a load density phenomenon… because it has nothing to do with it.
It is the pulse from the powder burning, it's affects on the burn are what's in question.
I fully understand how powders burn, ball powder burns completely differently to extruded powder. Extruded powder burns progressively from the inside and the outside at the same time, this is why it is perforated down it's middle.
Ball powder burns digressively from it's surface all over at once and increases the speed of the burn the smaller it gets.
This is the cause of the difference, nothing to do with density.

Just wait for the newer military powders that are being tested now, they burn different again and will change how you load a cartridge completely.

Cheers.

 

[asd9055]

Not in the case of the 375 Weatherby….
The loads in question are both compressed.
One load is 89g (760) and the other load is 91g (H4350). Both running the same pressure, yes I have pressure testing equipment.
You cannot tell me this is a load density phenomenon… because it has nothing to do with it.
It is the pulse from the powder burning, it's affects on the burn are what's in question.
I fully understand how powders burn, ball powder burns completely differently to extruded powder. Extruded powder burns progressively from the inside and the outside at the same time, this is why it is perforated down it's middle.
Ball powder burns digressively from it's surface all over at once and increases the speed of the burn the smaller it gets.
This is the cause of the difference, nothing to do with density.

Just wait for the newer military powders that are being tested now, they burn different again and will change how you load a cartridge completely.

Cheers.

It is always so refreshing to read your thoughtful responses. You bring so much to this forum. We are lucky you are here!

 

[nwhunter]

Not in the case of the 375 Weatherby….
The loads in question are both compressed.
One load is 89g (760) and the other load is 91g (H4350). Both running the same pressure, yes I have pressure testing equipment.
You cannot tell me this is a load density phenomenon… because it has nothing to do with it.
It is the pulse from the powder burning, it's affects on the burn are what's in question.
I fully understand how powders burn, ball powder burns completely differently to extruded powder. Extruded powder burns progressively from the inside and the outside at the same time, this is why it is perforated down it's middle.
Ball powder burns digressively from it's surface all over at once and increases the speed of the burn the smaller it gets.
This is the cause of the difference, nothing to do with density.

Just wait for the newer military powders that are being tested now, they burn different again and will change how you load a cartridge completely.

Cheers.

So, does this mean that ball powders of similar burn rate will have less noticeable recoil than extruded powders in rifles? I've reloaded for almost 60 years with extruded powders and only recently tried ball (760) trying to get up to pressure with the hammer 186 grain bullet in my 338/06. I can think of at least one rifle I load for that I might change over from 4350 to 760 if that's the case.

 

[MagnumManiac]

So, does this mean that ball powders of similar burn rate will have less noticeable recoil than extruded powders in rifles? I've reloaded for almost 60 years with extruded powders and only recently tried ball (760) trying to get up to pressure with the hammer 186 grain bullet in my 338/06. I can think of at least one rifle I load for that I might change over from 4350 to 760 if that's the case.

It depends more on expansion ratio, but yes it is quite possible that this would be the case.
In semi auto rifles, there is a large difference in cycle rate when using ball powders and this is what the military advise using. The pulse and rate are softer on the mechanism. They did all the testing way back when and are continuing testing with new powders that aren't available to us….YET.

Cheers.

 

[fxol]

Interesting thread and something I've wondered too. I load 45grs of ADI 2206H under a 150gr sst in my 308 and it feels so soft to shoot, almost like a 243, but hits hard on game. Nothing scientific in my findings, but his load feels softer than any other factory load or reload.

 

[jakeSCH]

I've noticed it when running IMR4955 vs RL26 with 213 HH out of my 338 RUM at 3300 FPS. IMR4955 is noticeably "snappier"