I will not be getting 'the vaccine'...

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I write them regularly. You'd probably be surprised how much you and I vote alike. Not on everything, but on many things.

This issue is different than those we normally face and it never should have been politicized. We only win if we're united against it. Anything short of united and we will continue to drag it out much longer than necessary. The thread started on the topic of not getting the vaccine. And right now it's still your choice to make. Getting or not getting it shouldn't be impacted by whether you think they will make it mandatory later. I would recommend getting it, and if you don't get it, I recommend all the things I've listed to help spreading it to others. If you don't get it, it's your duty to still help fight it in other ways.

ANOTHER CASUAL - I've read many of your posts regarding Covid and tend to agree with your position on the issue. Keep the faith, we're not all anti-vaxxers. :>) And yes - I do wear a mask and limit my interaction with others as the epidemic is still a serious health concern.

Let's all get through this together.
 
Once again this is where you are in the fog, You and and a bunch of other folks have been indoctrinated over the years, they just keep throwing you tid bits and you you keep eating, it started gradually, Cash for Clunkers, Obama Care, High gas prices and a host of other things before that and now here we are, Open your eyes , If you are writing to your legislators more power to you, But if your not writing to them about this mess Then what is it your worried about
I respectfully disagree. I do not demonize my opponents and I do not think either side is out to get me (even if friends on both sides of the aisle try to convince me of such).

Here's where I'm at. The virus is real. Maybe you guys are right and the PCR tests are wrong or masks don't work super well. That's fine. It's my moral obligation, my civic duty, to not spread it to my neighbors, my 92 year old grandfather, my parents, or anyone else.

Even if you guys are 100% right, I won't regret my actions to stop the spread. It costs me nothing to try and help. I do my best to still support local business with curbside pickup or ordering from them online, I just don't go to sit down at the restaurant or the brewery (and the miss the breweries). I have not seen a good reason here why trying is not worth our effort.
 
A close friend of mine, here the other day told me of a friend that died of an auto accident, and the hospital stated it was due to COIVD. The hospital get more money if they post COVID as cause of death. That really needs to be stopped. So there a lot of death that are not COVID related. Just the money that the people can't see the door for the money that's in the way.









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I respectfully disagree. I do not demonize my opponents and I do not think either side is out to get me (even if friends on both sides of the aisle try to convince me of such).

Here's where I'm at. The virus is real. Maybe you guys are right and the PCR tests are wrong or masks don't work super well. That's fine. It's my moral obligation, my civic duty, to not spread it to my neighbors, my 92 year old grandfather, my parents, or anyone else.

Even if you guys are 100% right, I won't regret my actions to stop the spread. It costs me nothing to try and help. I do my best to still support local business with curbside pickup or ordering from them online, I just don't go to sit down at the restaurant or the brewery (and the miss the breweries). I have not seen a good reason here why trying is not worth our effort.
I apologize if my comment's were misinterpreted, I by no means was demonizing you or anyone else, these are just my opinions on the situation, Although I don't agree I do respect your side of the discussion and your conviction to your effort
 
I just love Uncle Joe (Stalin) Biden. Knowing what a fool he is making of himself comforts me.
And all the people that voted for him....
 

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I've been contemplating even to post in this discussion because fundamentally it's inflammatory and divisive.

That said, masks don't work. Period. They never have. I would challenge you to find a single study published prior to 2020 that demonstrated on a large scale that they were effective. They don't exist. Furthermore most studies published in 2020 don't support their use either. Most of them are based on mechanistic models/simulations and not real world data. Sorry to burst peoples bubbles, but science existed prior to 2020. The only "mask" that can prevent transmission is a plastic bag because it will permanently prevent respiration. The purported "science" behind mask wearing started with HAMSTERS that were separated by a wall of mask material and they had access to fresh air vented through the top of their container, because they would have otherwise suffocated. They might as well have been in separate containers. That type of study doesn't prove or support anything. It's not even the correct species of animal and they weren't humanized hamsters. It's absolute garbage.

Furthermore, it doesn't take something like the Danish study that was cited here to actually know that masks and other social containment measures don't work. Case in point, look at California. The most populous state in the country with 40,000,000 people. They have been locked down and under a mask mandate since April and look at their coronavirus numbers in comparison to states that haven't been locked down or under a mask mandate. If any of that worked, then California should have rid itself of COVID 19 in like June. Hasn't happened. Same with New York. Combined with states that haven't implemented such mandates, that means that in a real time population based study of over 100,000,000 people, neither masks nor social distancing nor destroying people's livelihoods have influenced the incidence or prevalence of the disease. To the contrary you can make a legitimate argument that they have made it worse and the data would be on your side. The only thing they have definitively done is increase the incidence of depression, suicide, poverty, domestic violence, violent crime to include murder, and substance abuse, and have destroyed 10s of millions of peoples livelihood to the point that they may not ever be able to recover financially. They have literally become destitute. That is an unequivocal fact.

However, what is also a fact is that COVID 19 DOES KILL some people. No question. That number is also much lower than the reported deaths attributed to it. The CDC even published real data, from real Americans, in America which demonstrated that on average people dying from COVID 19 had on average 2.8 other diagnoses listed as a cause of death. In most cases COVID 19 wasn't the primary cause of death. What does that mean? It means that most people didn't die from respiratory failure or COVID related cardiomyopathy. They died from the other thing(s) that brought them to the hospital such has a "regular" heart attack, stroke, bacterial pneumonia unrelated to COVID 19, urinary tract infection, gunshot wounds, getting hit by a car, etc and they happened to test + for COVID. Have you noticed that ever since CNN or MSNBC started putting up their little death and infection counters that they calculated mortality rate keeps going down? Do you think that's because COVID is a) becoming less dangerous b) that we are exponentially better at treating it c) because we are just testing a lot more people? The answer is a combination of b&c. With a 40+% a symptomatic "carrier" rate it's just the tip of the iceberg. The other thing to think about though in relation to wearing masks etc is that currently there have been 27 million cases of documented COVID 19 infection in America. Given that most people in one way or another are only 6 degrees of separation from knowing/being socially connected to everyone else in America that means that EVERYONE is going to contract COVID 19 at some point. EVERYONE. Let that sink in. That's not to take away whatsoever from the people who have died from COVID 19, thats just the reality of the data. The fact that we have a novel mutation of a virus that now presents a new threat to the mortality of some people is tragic. However, people die from all sorts of stuff, COVID 19 is no exception. What's exceptional is the rabid response that was immediately implemented by many state, and now our federal government. Take Washington state for example. They had fewer than 1000 cases and the governor wanted to implement martial law...makes you wonder.

That brings me to my final point, which may come as a surprise after reading what I just wrote, you know what works against protecting yourself from viral illness? VACCINES and either using an alcohol based hand sanitizer or washing your hands multiple times/day, and not spitting in each others mouth/nose/eyes. Masks don't prevent the latter. They actually concentrate viral particles and make them and the air passing over them more infectious. You touch it and touch a door knob etc and you create a concentrated spot of viral particles. Whereas if you openly breath into the atmosphere UV radiation destroys the viral DNA almost immediately. Our knowledge of molecular biology and immunology has increased more than 1,000,000,000 times since the first vaccine was created. That's why what used to take 10 years now takes a couple weeks. In my lifetime, I've yet to have a vaccine that was worse than the disease that it was administered to prevent. Opting to wear a mask and avoid interacting with people for eternity is stupid, especially considering all evidence to date doesn't support that as being even remotely effective.

To the contrary, the COVID 19 vaccine is extremely effective. Whether or not you believe COVID 19 is more lethal than anything known to man or no worse than influenza, the vaccine works. Johnson and Johnson tested their vaccine in 60,000 people, against multiple strains of the virus, and it was 100% effective against hospitalization and death. 100%! With no deaths or anything ridiculous like that from the vaccine. Despite my perception that the danger of COVID 19 is conflated, the reality is that the vaccine is still exponentially safer than contracting the virus, even in people who aren't at risk of death to begin with.

Personally, I LOVE FREEDOM and I believe in private enterprise and peer reviewed science, far more than I trust Uncle Sam. I don't want to give the government any other excuse whatsoever to infringe on our personal sovereignty and so if that means that I have to get a vaccine every year then so be it. What's the excuse for continued lockdowns etc when you are immune? I'd rather have my livelihood and freedom. Vaccination is the only real hope for that. Cut the head off the snake and eradicate it. If you think that .gov is going to let you roam free without getting it in the near future you're fooling yourself.
 
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Thank you for the thoughtful post, @Chase723 This thread was not intended to be inflammatory or divisive. My hope was to share information openly and discuss this 'pandemic' situation we find ourselves in.

Many of the public health measures being enforced are not evidence based. How did we get to this point?

It seems to me that this is a healthcare-turned-political debate. I wish we could leave politics out of it, and focus on Science, BUT WE CAN'T!

These fast tracked mRNA vaccines COULD be dangerous. I hope they are not, but at present NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

We all have the right to INFORMED CONSENT, and there are a growing number of healthcare professionals who feel that informed consent is not possible with the presently available data.

If you like science, this is a pretty interesting video;

 
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