How "important" are certain details when reloading?

[roninflag]

When you say "mechanical", do you mean the mechanics of my shooting technique? If that's the case, what could cause that? A lot of times I can tell when I've pulled a shot as soon as the trigger breaks, but if I'm pulling shots without realizing it that's a problem.

the rifle has to slide the same each time. lead sled may have some error in the way the rifle slides.

 

[BigJohnH]

When you say "mechanical", do you mean the mechanics of my shooting technique? If that's the case, what could cause that? A lot of times I can tell when I've pulled a shot as soon as the trigger breaks, but if I'm pulling shots without realizing it that's a problem.[/QUOTE It could be you or the way the sled reacts when the rifle fires. If you are do exactly the same thing in preping and firing it then it has to be the weapon or the sled. I prefer to shoulder my rifle and put it on a rest rather than a sled type holder, it allows me to put the rifle back inline and look thru the scope to make each shot.

 

[roninflag]

Trophy- so you have a sonic cleaner to keep your brass volume the same. the benchrest guys who shoot 6ppc do not do that, and their brass volume is much much smaller, believe me it only holds 28-30 grain of n-133 . you have chrono - because "it keeps you safe because long range loads are hot loads". interesting.

 

[SomeRumbum]

Wow. Nice long thread. My experience:

1. Use the lead sled after mounting a new scope on new rifle. I only use the lead sled on my .375 RUM, 300 RUM and other kickers. Put it away after that. The lead sled has too much bounce in vertical, horizontal and about 4 other dimensions to shoot groups that matter. You are inducing additional variables into your groups that cannot be eliminated. (I love my lead sled, but only for this.)
2. Use a front pedestal and rear pinching ear type sandbag or lead filled bag to shoot groups. Use this on the ground or on cement bench. No card tables or tailgates of trucks, please. This will eliminate most of the variables induced by lead sled. You do not need to spend a ton on a front pedestal. Any that has a front bag that reasonably fits your forearm is better than lead sled. I bet this combo cuts your groups in half. 3 shot groups to start to find some loads, 4 shot groups next on the good ones, then maybe 5 shot groups on your 2 best loads.
3. Save up or sell your 721 next year and get a newer Remington 700 action in caliber of your choice with the longest barrel you can afford. Even a used SPS or similar will shoot. (Case in point...son's new Reminton 700 varmint in .308 shoots .5" groups all day long and it only cost $425 at Sportsmans Warehouse. More cases in point....every 300 RUM in a Remington 700 action...I have worked up over 7 of them to date...can be made to shoot .5" groups. Worst has been .75" groups. All of them like Nosler 180 Accubonds, RE-25 and Fed primers).
4. When you burn out your barrel on a Remington 700 action, every decent gunsmith can chamber a new Krieger or other barrel on it that will continue to shoot .5" groups. Each Remington 700 action will last through several lifetimes.
5. If you can afford next year, get a stainless or XCR Remington rifle. It will go nicely with your Krieger barrel after you have burned out the factory barrel.
6. A scope with a little more reach will greatly cut your group size down. If you can obtain a 14 or 20x scope etc, so much the better. (Not necessary but fyi, we use old 36x cheap fixed power scopes work up loads, then remount our "hunting" scopes.)
7. Brass type or prep or weighing, bullet type or brand, powder or primer will not matter unless you start with the above.
8. Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, Combined Technology from Nosler will all tend to be much more consistent in the groups than Partitions. You will get flyers with Partitions and I do not care if you are shooting a $4,000 Bat Action 1k rifle. However, Partitions will kill an elk just as dead as any other.
9. For another weather variable I would eliminate would be on the powder. Use Extreme powders. H4831 etc. see Hodgon website. (That said, I use RE-25 on my RUMS because it shoots tiny groups.)
10. If you are using the 300 H&H for nostalgic purposes, go for it. I do that with my Dad's .308 with an 18" barrel and totally get that. Otherwise, next year....there is a reason the military snipers use 300 Win mags on Remington 700 actions...they shoot.
11. Make sure all the screws on your action, scope rings and mounts are tight.
12. After you find your load for the 300 H&H, go shoot at something at 400 yards as you would an elk. Milk jugs, 2 liter bottle etc. How did you do? That 9 power scope kinda makes it more difficult. That said, an elk shoulder is pretty huge at 400 yards even on 9 power. I hope you shoot a record book elk if you have not already.

There. I feel better. 12 steps to help one of my bretheren.

Best,

Somerumbum

 

[roninflag]

the sonic cleaner (100$) - the reason i clean the cases is too remove the case lube i applied to resize. there needs to be friction between the brass and chamber wall to avoid excessive pressure on the locking lugs. this can be done many ways. a rag; at benchrest matches commonly a shirt tail ; i suppose the dish /clothes ?washer ( not sure on that one). the chrono (100$) I use at the VERY Very end when i have developed a very good load to determine FPS for the cds/kenton knobb. also it can be used to determine extreme spread if you are shooting far . the ES is critical for long range. The Chrono does not measure PSI or CUP. there is 200$ add 150$ for the scope you have $350 . the higher power of a 4.5 -14 would save me time and components ( $$$ ) in range testiing and load developement. also when or if I range a spiker at 429 yd it would give me a lot more confidence on the shot(that conifidence ( $$$$).

 

[MR.SWIFT]

im not a bench rest shooter don't shoot comp. but I do shoot a lot, elk season is just around the corner for me. if I were working out this rifle I wouldn't worry about most if any of the case prep concerns other than my primer seating depth. as long as the cases are clean and dry when I seated them in the bore for a 400yd shot they will get there. I also wouldn't be using a sled to shoot from, light rifles don't respond well to sleds or any restrained shooting devices. for bench testing purposes I use a simple shooting bag. if you can match the factory loads you were using with your reloads call it good. the bullet you are using isn't a target bullet. don't expect .250 groups. any of the loads you took pic. of centered on an elks shoulder would hit him at 400yrs, if you do your part. go hunting have fun.

 

[benchracer]

Wow. Nice long thread. My experience:

3. Save up or sell your 721 next year and get a newer Remington 700 action in caliber of your choice with the longest barrel you can afford.

This makes no sense. There is nothing about the 700 action that makes it more inherently accurate than its predecessor. The primary differences between the two are cosmetic changes and a different trigger. A trigger from a 700 can be adapted to work on a 721 if that is deemed necessary.

Everything that a gunsmith is going to do to a 700 applies equally to a 721. There is nothing especially different or exotic about the 700. Moreover, there are not yet any indications that there is a problem with the OP's rifle. At this point, the accuracy issues appear to be shooter related or ammo related.

Even if, for instance, the barrel turns out to need replacement, there is no reason to replace the rifle. A good barrel can be fitted to a 721 just as easily as it can be fitted to a 700 and the end result of a properly fitted quality barrel will be no more or less accurate on either rifle.

 

[trophyhusband]

Trophy- so you have a sonic cleaner to keep your brass volume the same. the benchrest guys who shoot 6ppc do not do that, and their brass volume is much much smaller, believe me it only holds 28-30 grain of n-133 . you have chrono - because "it keeps you safe because long range loads are hot loads". interesting.

I got the sonic cleaner for no other reason than I just like very clean brass. After I clean my brass in the sonic cleaner I put it in the vibrating polisher as well. Reloading is something where you can really geek out on the minutia. This is one of the things I like to do even though I know it doesn't make any difference.

I got the chrono just so I could measure muzzle velocity of my rifles so I can use a ballistics calculator. One of the things I want to do with it is see if I can get a consistent velocity out of one of my muzzle loaders. If so, I'm going to put a ladder site on one and see just how far I can reliably shoot it.

 

[trophyhusband]

Wow. Nice long thread. My experience:

1. Use the lead sled after mounting a new scope on new rifle. I only use the lead sled on my .375 RUM, 300 RUM and other kickers. Put it away after that. The lead sled has too much bounce in vertical, horizontal and about 4 other dimensions to shoot groups that matter. You are inducing additional variables into your groups that cannot be eliminated. (I love my lead sled, but only for this.)
2. Use a front pedestal and rear pinching ear type sandbag or lead filled bag to shoot groups. Use this on the ground or on cement bench. No card tables or tailgates of trucks, please. This will eliminate most of the variables induced by lead sled. You do not need to spend a ton on a front pedestal. Any that has a front bag that reasonably fits your forearm is better than lead sled. I bet this combo cuts your groups in half. 3 shot groups to start to find some loads, 4 shot groups next on the good ones, then maybe 5 shot groups on your 2 best loads.
3. Save up or sell your 721 next year and get a newer Remington 700 action in caliber of your choice with the longest barrel you can afford. Even a used SPS or similar will shoot. (Case in point...son's new Reminton 700 varmint in .308 shoots .5" groups all day long and it only cost $425 at Sportsmans Warehouse. More cases in point....every 300 RUM in a Remington 700 action...I have worked up over 7 of them to date...can be made to shoot .5" groups. Worst has been .75" groups. All of them like Nosler 180 Accubonds, RE-25 and Fed primers).
4. When you burn out your barrel on a Remington 700 action, every decent gunsmith can chamber a new Krieger or other barrel on it that will continue to shoot .5" groups. Each Remington 700 action will last through several lifetimes.
5. If you can afford next year, get a stainless or XCR Remington rifle. It will go nicely with your Krieger barrel after you have burned out the factory barrel.
6. A scope with a little more reach will greatly cut your group size down. If you can obtain a 14 or 20x scope etc, so much the better. (Not necessary but fyi, we use old 36x cheap fixed power scopes work up loads, then remount our "hunting" scopes.)
7. Brass type or prep or weighing, bullet type or brand, powder or primer will not matter unless you start with the above.
8. Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, Combined Technology from Nosler will all tend to be much more consistent in the groups than Partitions. You will get flyers with Partitions and I do not care if you are shooting a $4,000 Bat Action 1k rifle. However, Partitions will kill an elk just as dead as any other.
9. For another weather variable I would eliminate would be on the powder. Use Extreme powders. H4831 etc. see Hodgon website. (That said, I use RE-25 on my RUMS because it shoots tiny groups.)
10. If you are using the 300 H&H for nostalgic purposes, go for it. I do that with my Dad's .308 with an 18" barrel and totally get that. Otherwise, next year....there is a reason the military snipers use 300 Win mags on Remington 700 actions...they shoot.
11. Make sure all the screws on your action, scope rings and mounts are tight.
12. After you find your load for the 300 H&H, go shoot at something at 400 yards as you would an elk. Milk jugs, 2 liter bottle etc. How did you do? That 9 power scope kinda makes it more difficult. That said, an elk shoulder is pretty huge at 400 yards even on 9 power. I hope you shoot a record book elk if you have not already.

There. I feel better. 12 steps to help one of my bretheren.

Best,

Somerumbum

Thank you for taking the time to write all that, there's a lot of good info there. I won't be getting rid of the H&H though, it was my grandpa's gun. Also, I only need it for elk. I have a 6.5 Grendel on order for deer, antelope, and long range target shooting.

As far as my elk hunt this year, it doesn't start until October 5, and unfortunately all I could get was a spike only tag so no record bulls for me. I've never shot an elk before so even a spike will make me ecstatic anyway. Plus, the meat will be yummy.

 

[trophyhusband]

I'm reading over and over about the downside of the lead sled. I'll say this about that. If I were going out and shooting 5 or 6 rounds at a time I would ditch the lead sled. I know that with a 30-06 I'm good for about 15-20 rounds before I start to flinch. I'm guessing that number would be much smaller with the H&H. I hate to sound like a vagina, but that gun has a stout kick to it and I really don't want to develop a flinch. For now I'll keep with it, but maybe after hunting season I'll ditch it and just do shorter shooting sessions. It will take longer for load development, but I have a long time before the next elk season.

 

[benchracer]

Get one of these: PAST Mag Recoil Pad Shield Ambidextrous

I have one that I use when shooting my .375 H&H from the bench. It makes a big difference. I can shoot as long as I need to without developing a flinch.

I would bet that you will shoot much better with front and rear bags and a recoil shield.

 

[roninflag]

I got the sonic cleaner for no other reason than I just like very clean brass. After I clean my brass in the sonic cleaner I put it in the vibrating polisher as well. Reloading is something where you can really geek out on the minutia. This is one of the things I like to do even though I know it doesn't make any difference.

I got the chrono just so I could measure muzzle velocity of my rifles so I can use a ballistics calculator. One of the things I want to do with it is see if I can get a consistent velocity out of one of my muzzle loaders. If so, I'm going to put a ladder site on one and see just how far I can reliably shoot it.

Trophy - i understand. YOU want/need to get a catalog from Sinclair international. once elk season is over order get a bunch of stuff . i have turned case necks and used bushing dies, in line seaters ect. primer pocket uniformers. i do not use a deburring tool , but i have one. when i was younger my allowance was small and it took time . given your objectives and given my experience i would get the scope FIRST ( selling plasma if necessary) and let the other geek stuff come later. that is just me . Trophy- i have a rem 700 tit , ( i bought from a guy in sandy) in 300rsaum . roughly the same case capacity and balistics as the H&H. it weighs less than 6 pounds. shoots .5" easily with a 168 cbt. the good thing is the recoil pad is like a big pillow. and it has a muzzle brake so it is really not too bad . Enjoy and good luck.

 

[trophyhusband]

I got out and chronographed the load I've settled on and zeroed my scope for 200 yards. With the exception of a couple outliers, my rounds are within 40 fps which is just fine for what I'm doing now. I'm sure much of that variance has to do with how tight I'm holding the gun to my shoulder.

The thing is though, my velocity right around 2725 fps, about the same as a 30-06 so I'm not gaining any advantage over just using a 30-06. There's nothing wrong with that gun, in fact I love a 30-06. It's just that I already have a couple of them. Before next season I'll figure out how to take full advantage of the H&H. There have been a lot of great suggestions in this thread with regard to powder and bullet selection so I'll be referring back here a lot.

I'm buying a Nightforce scope for another gun and I really don't like the idea of switching a scope between two guns, but I'll do it if I have to. There's a guy here that's a dealer for Hawke optics and I'm toying with the idea of getting one of those. They're pretty inexpensive and this is a gun that I'l be using only once a year.

I then backed up to 300 yards and lined the horizontal reticle up with the top of the target and fired a few rounds. The bullets were hitting 8 inches low. (When I got home I put the numbers in a ballistics program and it agreed with the real world, yay!) Now comes the part that got me excited. Someone has set up some steel targets. From the spot I've been setting up for 100 yard shots, the steel targets are 300, 400, and 500 yards out. I shot at the 300 yard gong and hit it 3 out of 3 times. Seeing that gong swing and then hearing the "bong" is so much more satisfying that punching a hole in a piece of paper.

This shooting was done with a bench so if I get a chance I'm going to shoot again before the season starts but I'm going to use the bipod that I'll be using for hunting. Assuming I don't have any trouble hitting the 300 yards target, I'll practice the 400 yarder. I've been out trying to help my father in law get a deer and I've been doing a lot of ranging. What I've learned is that I really over-estimate distances, and 300 yards is a loooong way out. I should be able to get within 300 yards of an elk.

These targets are also right behind my house. In fact, I can see one of the gongs from my deck, and it's about 1300 yards away. If I didn't live in town limits (and it wouldn't spook the hell out of my animals) I could shoot from my house.

6 more days until the season starts.

 

[trophyhusband]

Well, I SHOULD have and elk by now. A few days ago I was 300 yards away from a spike but I was in very dense timber on a very steep slope and he was across the valley. I just couldn't find any rest that didn't have branches in the way. I didn't take a shot. The next morning I bought some decent shooting sticks. Yesterday morning I spotted a herd over 1,100 yards away across a valley and I spent 9 hours stocking them. At one point I had my crosshairs on a very nice thick antlered 4x4 and several cows at 250 yards. I thought it would have been perfect if a spike stepped out but it didn't. At the same time there was a spike laying under a tree about 600 yards away but there were other elk around so I just had to sit back and wait. I spent the afternoon watching a couple stands of timber and clearings as small groups of elk would walk out and graze a while and then go back into the timber. Finally they all started coming out for their evening feeding. I picked out my spike and moved as close as I dared given the very noisy vegetation I had to move through. I set up at 475 yards. I relaxed and made sure I was holding steady and I squeezed the trigger. The elk looked around for a few seconds and went back to eating. He was completely unfazed. I let a second round go with the same result. Then a third. I could hear a very loud "thwack" when the bullet struck the hillside, but I never saw any bullet splash. I eased up 400 yards and shot again. Same thing. I then moved up to 350 yards and shot again. Again the elk was unharmed. All the while more and more elk were moving out into the open. I shot again. This time I noticed what appeared to be a bullet hole in the dirt in the hill a little above the spike. I then aimed a little lower and fired, this time expecting a hit. There was now another bullet hole just slightly lower than the first. I then aimed dead onto the vitals, but still nothing. That was my last bullet and the spike was still happily feeding. The long hike out sucked. I stopped by camp to grab a few things and went home to sulk and regroup.

Today I went out back to shoot, dreading that my scope was still dead on and that it was just my bad shooting that failed me. I shot at 100 yards and it wasn't even on paper. I move to 50 yards and the bullet hit 1 inch high and one inch to the right. That didn't make much sense. I shot my third round and it hit almost exactly where the second round hit. Now I don't know what the hell to make of it, but I may make a trip to Cabela's and get a new scope, then spend this evening loading more bullets, and spend tomorrow dialing in the scope and practicing shooting long range with my shooting sticks.