Concentricity .. how important?

How many here have heard of this method that I've read from a few sources
First de-prime brass using a Lee universal de-priming die
Then remove FL sizing expander ball and resize case
Lastly size case mouth only with a Lee collet die
Going to try this but I don't own a run out gauge so I will test by rolling each round on a dead flat piece of machined stainless and a piece of marble tile
Will reload 10 rounds using my Forester FL BR die & BR seating die then use the above method to reload 10 more using my Redding FL sizing die with expander , check all by rolling then shooting
Will do this for my 300wsm
 
Darton; your method is slightly off. The full length sizing die with expander removed will size your necks too small and the Lee collet die would be trying to size the neck even smaller.

For example my Forster full length die with expander removed will size my brass to .327. The expander ball will expand the neck back out to .333, in my case giving me .002 neck tension (loaded round measures .335). So basically my FL die sizes the neck .006 more than needed.

For your method you would need either a body die that does not size the neck then use the Lee collet neck die. Or use the Forster full length die with expander ball removed then use a mandrel to expand the neck to the size you want.
 
The straightest ammo I can make is by a Redding body die and Lee collet Neck size die.
My run out with this method is always at or under .001".
This is with skim neck turned winchester. Norma or Lapua brass never needs it.
 
The straightest ammo I can make is by a Redding body die and Lee collet Neck size die.
My run out with this method is always at or under .001".
This is with skim neck turned winchester. Norma or Lapua brass never needs it.

Ill blame my miss-statement on having worked 96 hours this week, 306 hours in the last four weeks and posting while sleep deprived from work. I have exactly the dies listed above and use this exact method. Don't know what I could've possibly been thinking other than been trying to come up with a way to compensate for Redding not making body only sizing die for one of my favorite most frequently shot, but admittedly short range calibers, 35 Remington.
 
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Ok. I simply will need you to send me those rifles and loads so I can try them also.
I'm not sure what happened? I haven't received those rifles yet Lance. Did you send them UPS? :D

Great posts from all here. Love the information and have used it to modify my loading procedures. Hopefully I'll get to test the loads and report back on results soon. Lacrosse season in full swing with the kids up here so range time limited.
-Swede
 
from "The American Rifleman" ~ 1960, and the NRA says it is ok to quote.
This is how my program scanned the old printed book.

"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let's center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-'O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".
 
The straightest ammo I can make is by a Redding body die and Lee collet Neck size die.
My run out with this method is always at or under .001".
This is with skim neck turned winchester. Norma or Lapua brass never needs it.

This is the method I have adopted for all my bottleneck rifles. Even 223 on a progressive press (body, collet, powder charge, benchrest seater).

Life is about compromise, and using two dies is less of a PIA to me than turning necks, lubing necks, and monkeying with an expander ball.

A honed Forester FL also works well, but you need to turn necks for best results, and you have to buy another die if you want to adjust neck tension. Bushing dies are an option, but the cost of the die and bushings get expensive (still have to uniform necks).

Lee sells different sized collect mandrels for $4, so neck tension changes are easy and affordable.

I'm not bashing any of the sizing methods; I've just settled on the body/collet.

I have an AR I call my junk yard dog; it's a hodgepodge of parts with a shillen barrel. I progressive load for it with range pick up brass sorted by headstamp, and it shoots 1/2"-3/4" groups all day long. Makes me laugh when other guys are using expensive brass with runout and tension issues because they are using a regular FL die and don't know what they are doing. I'm not bashing high end brass - I run Lapua and norma in my bolt guns.
 
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What is the difference in diameter of a body die neck hole and the loaded ammo neck diameter?

Are you using the Lee collet before the Redding body die?
 
How many here have heard of this method that I've read from a few sources
First de-prime brass using a Lee universal de-priming die
Then remove FL sizing expander ball and resize case
Lastly size case mouth only with a Lee collet die
Going to try this but I don't own a run out gauge so I will test by rolling each round on a dead flat piece of machined stainless and a piece of marble tile
Will reload 10 rounds using my Forester FL BR die & BR seating die then use the above method to reload 10 more using my Redding FL sizing die with expander , check all by rolling then shooting
Will do this for my 300wsm
Unfortunately you're not going to be able to gauge how much runout is in your ammo. You may or may not see the "wobble", but it's there.
The concentricity gauge allows you to measure, and then you can remedy and measure again.
I too use the lee collet and Redding body die set for all of my cartridges except 338 Lapua, that one I use RCBS bushing die without the expander installed.
 
I am not sure that any quality die sets will not load concentric ammo If used properly. For years I had good success with RCBS dies and only started to change brands when they offered more features and adjustability/flexibility. depending on the needed features, I use many brands now to get the best for the uses and needs of the cartridge. I still have and use some of my original Die sets and presses but where i need more, i have other equipment and test gauges that are used.

The concentricity tools are just that, tools to show you how good or bad your loading process is. There are many different brands and methods to how they work, so one brand/style may be better suited for what you expect from it than another.

I like to use two different types to get what want. But this doesn't mean that you must have two or three different styles of concentricity tools. I just like the function of one for checking fired cases first, and then using it to check the loaded round using the same tool to see if/what the difference is and use it to improve the loading process by trial and error until I get the desired results. (Or at least the best my equipment can do.

The other works well when I screw up or don't produce the best ammo for its use, i can straighten and salvage it for some uses.
after the straightening process, I like to go back to the tool I checked the fired cases to realy measure the improvements. (Using the same tool gives me an Apple to Apple comparison).

So I recommend that you try what you have, using good contcentricity tools to measure your results and after determining
what/where the problem is that cant be fixed, then look for better/different equipment designed to help eliminate these issues.

Everyone has there own way of doing things and must adapt to improve on it.

Just My opinion

J E CUSTOM
 
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I am not sure that any quality die sets will not load concentric ammo If used properly.

I agree fully. My testing of different techniques and dies showed that I could load <=1 thou ammo with a FL die, but I was more susceptible to error when brass uniformity was less than ideal. The body/collet setup was more robust.

The RCBS concentricity tool can be used to measure case wall thickness variation as well.
 
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