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ohiohunter

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No, you iron out the dents on the inside of the case necks with the mandrel and then size to taste as normal with the proper bushing. The mandrel should expand them enough so that your sizing die will squeeze them back down. The expander mandrel fits in it's own holder....not in the reloading die. I don't bother with the mandrel unless the case mouths get dented...like ejecting cases with thin necks in a 1k match that has a concrete floor and your brass misses the brass catcher. I cringe every time it happens!! :D

The mandrels I use are more for neck turning. They come in two sizes for each caliber...an "E" expander mandrel and a "T" turning mandrel. The "E" is slightly oversized so that when you are turning necks the brass doesn't fit so tightly on the "T" mandrel, which makes a pile of heat due to friction. Also, the mandrels have a very gental slope to them so that it is easy on the brass. I also use them when creating false shoulders on new brass for a wildcat....like the dasher. Run the .257 "E" mandrel into a 6mm BR brass, then neck it down the proper amount with your regular realoding die and POOF...instant false shoulder.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...ber-expander-mandrels-prod33871.aspx?psize=96

I know mandrels are a separate die. So if I have a 284 spent case and put the mandrel through it nothing will happen b/c the shoulder is already blown beyond .284, so do you neck size then open it w/ the mandrel? If you do, how do you determine your neck tension? Also over time your necks will thin and changing mandrels isn't as easy as changing bushings.

I guess I'm a little confused on how to use a mandrel for reloading, I've used them to open 6.5 to 284 and thats it. At one point I did want to use a lee mandrel but after talking to a guy who is far more meticulous than I said what he does to his mandrels w/ honing etc.... so I aborted.
 

BountyHunter

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Jun 13, 2007
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Not at all. Semi auto chambers and actions are much looser than a bolt gun to allow rapid ejection and loading whereas a bolt gun has a much closer tolerance and requites FL resizing (among other things) to operate correctly and attain repetitive accuracy.

I don't own one NS die. Wait a minute I do, For my Ruger Mini 14 223 semi auto.

Haven't shot it in years.

NOT True, there is one set of chamber specs with min and max dimensions for SAAMI chambers such as 308, and 223. Semi chambers can be cut with same reamers. I think you are confused with the difference between civilian vs military chambers. The only semi's that have different chambers are military 308 vs 7.62 and .223 vs 5.56 vs Wylde chambers , but not the same at all dimension and NAME wise. If you NS an auto, you will not be a happy camper with all the failure to feed. The bolt gun when you chamber, the bolt gives that last little push when it locks up.
 

Bravo 4

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Jul 20, 2007
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4,140
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Haven't shot it in years.

Yeah I have the feeling this is why you are getting away with it.:D

Gotta side with Bountyhunter, the only sloppy chambers I know that are on purpose would be our machine guns. And when I say sloppy I mean maybe slightly oversized but for the most part it isn't much difference at all...in some cases-if at all. I have measured and sized (full length) brass fired from several M240's just to please my own curiosity. Some I would use in my factory .308's chamber, but some were trashed. You never know, that's why some people are reluctant to buy surplus brass. I would be too unless it's match fired from our Sniper rifles.

I'm sure people can and do get away with neck sizing only for autos, but it will eventually catch up with you.
 

bigedp51

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Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,022
The Forster dies are the best thing for reducing neck runout and I even equipped all my RCBS dies with the Forster expander and spindle assemblies.

Below a RCBS .223 full length die equipped with the Forster expander and spindle assembly.

IMG_2140_zpsea657d9e.jpg


philipbrousseau brought up the Forster dies and must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am. :rolleyes:

Below the Forster spindle is allowed to float because of the rubber washer. The neck of the case is still centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. With this arrangement the expander can not pull your case necks off center.

Sizer_Die_011_zpst2zm6m7y.gif


With a off the shelf factory rifle with a standard SAAMI chamber you have a large neck diameter. And any time you use a bushing die to size a case neck .005 or larger than the bushing diameter you will induce neck runout. This is also why they recommend two step resizing with a bushing die with necks over .005 or larger.

Bottom line with my off the shelf factory rifles I get the least amount of neck runout with these Forster benchrest full length dies. And I get the worst runout with bushing dies with one step sizing. A bushing die allows the bushing to float and the bushing can move side to side and even tilt when sizing. Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers where the case neck does not expand as much as a standard chamber.
 

cgarb

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Oct 7, 2012
Messages
217
Thanks for the tip on using Forester decap assembly in a RCBS die. I have to see if this will work out for me. If so im gonna be ordering a lot of decap assemblies from Forester.
 

bigedp51

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Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,022
You can also remove the standard low mounted expander and size the case and then use a expander die to expand the case necks.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension within AccurateShooter.com

sinclairexpander350_zps65ab7f4c.jpg



You can also use a Lyman type "M" die to expand the necks, and the slightly larger step helps when seating the bullets and reducing runout. Normally when using a type "M" die you push the neck over the first step and then using the second step to flare the case mouth for cast bullets. With jacketed bullets you just slightly start the neck on to the first step. And this opens the case mouth slightly and the bullets seats with less effort and reduces runout during the seating operation.

Various3_zpsi85oz4p6.png


The two methods above push downward when expanding the necks and the Sinclair expander die allows the mandrel to float and self center in the case neck. The type "M" die has a fixed mandrel but I have seen no increase in runout using either type expander.

I use the Lyman type "M" die when loading for my AR15 A2 HBAR to help decrease any runout when seating bullets.

Another part of the low mounted expanders is if there are any dings in the extractor groove the shell holder will cause the case to tip even more. With the Forster high mounted expander system this greatly reduces any influence the shell holder and defects in the extractor groove have. Camp Perry trick for reducing neck runout on chewed up semiauto brass. :)
 

4xforfun

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Oct 1, 2007
Messages
1,482
I know mandrels are a separate die. So if I have a 284 spent case and put the mandrel through it nothing will happen b/c the shoulder is already blown beyond .284,


EXACTLY. Then this piece of brass you just described obviously doesn't have a dent in it or a portion of it would be LESS than .284. The point of using the mandrel is to open up a piece of brass THAT IS DENTED, AND ONLY THE PIECE OF BRASS THAT IS DENTED!! It opens that piece of brass to .284 like the rest of your brass and you don't have to worry about neck tension issues due to dented case mouths. It is ready to be FL/neck sized with the rest of the cases. Other than this purpose, an expander mandrel has no other purpose in the reloading cycle.

You are making this WAY more complecated than it is!! lightbulb

Simple...get rid of the old fashoned reloading die with the expander ball on the decapping pin and replace it with a bushing die. Now you can control neck tension with the propper bushing. If you have a couple of cases that have dents...and this bothers you, iron out the dents with the tool described above BEFORE sizing.

SIMPLE, and pretty much every benchrest shooter that I know uses this method.
 

bigedp51

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1,022
The point of using the mandrel is to open up a piece of brass THAT IS DENTED, AND ONLY THE PIECE OF BRASS THAT IS DENTED!! It opens that piece of brass to .284 like the rest of your brass and you don't have to worry about neck tension issues due to dented case mouths. It is ready to be FL/neck sized with the rest of the cases. Other than this purpose, an expander mandrel has no other purpose in the reloading cycle.

Mandrel expander dies can and are used for just expanding the case necks and reducing neck runout, and not just used for neck turning. And many reloaders at accurateshooter.com expand their necks with expander dies.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension within AccurateShooter.com

Watch the Sinclair video at the link below.

Sinclair Expander Dies
Straighten out bent case mouths, create uniform neck tension and properly size your case necks for turning with the Sinclair Expander Dies.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech/Sinclair-Expander-Dies/detail.htm?lid=14794
 

Bart B

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Dec 25, 2005
Messages
2,763
Some folks using FL dies with traditional stem and expander balls deprime fired cases then clean them before resizing them. They'll back up the decapping stem with the expander to about 1/16" below the shoulder of a case all the way up into the FL die. That keeps the case neck pretty well centered on the expander ball as it's pulled down and out of the die.

The straightest necks on bottleneck cases are typically made with gelded FL dies; no balls whatsoever. Their necks' are a couple thousandths smaller than that of a loaded round. This way also has half the work hardening of case necks; they're only sized once - down; not down then back up to a larger diameter.
 

4xforfun

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Oct 1, 2007
Messages
1,482
Mandrel expander dies can and are used for just expanding the case necks and reducing neck runout, and not just used for neck turning. And many reloaders at accurateshooter.com expand their necks with expander dies.

perly size your case necks for turning with the Sinclair Expander Dies.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech/Sinclair-Expander-Dies/detail.htm?lid=14794


I fully undederstand that. But, in this thread...when I dropped in, the concern was dented necks and the fact that bushing dies can not fix them. I agreed, and then explained my solution to this problem and how I use my expander mandrels to fix the dented brass. I understand that there are MANY ways to use this tool....probably some I haven't even considered.
Thanks,
Tod
 

bigedp51

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Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,022
Some folks using FL dies with traditional stem and expander balls deprime fired cases then clean them before resizing them. They'll back up the decapping stem with the expander to about 1/16" below the shoulder of a case all the way up into the FL die. That keeps the case neck pretty well centered on the expander ball as it's pulled down and out of the die.

The straightest necks on bottleneck cases are typically made with gelded FL dies; no balls whatsoever. Their necks' are a couple thousandths smaller than that of a loaded round. This way also has half the work hardening of case necks; they're only sized once - down; not down then back up to a larger diameter.

Below on the left is a .223 RCBS expander and spindle assembly raised to its maximum height. On the right is the Forster spindle at the correct height to enter the case neck while the neck of the die is holding the neck of the case.

The vast majority of my dies are older RCBS dies from the 1970s and 1980s and you can not raise the expander enough to duplicate the Forster design.


IMG_2141_zps77852ff6.jpg


On a whim last year I decided to buy a Forster full length 30-06 die and was extremely impressed with the low neck runout readings right out of the die. With the existing RCBS expander assemblies I experimented raising the expanders and using rubber o-rings and did not get the low runout figures I did with the Forster expanders.

Therefore I do not share your results and wonder what type/make dies you are using that duplicate the Forster design.

Also I just bought a new Forster full length .223 die and plan to have the neck honed. And if you look at the Forster dies in the link below they "ALL" have the expander installed. And when you just barely feel the expander being pulled through the neck you are not over working the brass. (and even bushing dies have expanders)

Read below
FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/
 

bigedp51

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Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,022
I fully undederstand that. But, in this thread...when I dropped in, the concern was dented necks and the fact that bushing dies can not fix them. I agreed, and then explained my solution to this problem and how I use my expander mandrels to fix the dented brass. I understand that there are MANY ways to use this tool....probably some I haven't even considered.
Thanks,
Tod

Then you should rewrite your posting below, it is very explicit. Expander dies have many uses and even bushing dies come with expanders.

EXACTLY. Then this piece of brass you just described obviously doesn't have a dent in it or a portion of it would be LESS than .284. The point of using the mandrel is to open up a piece of brass THAT IS DENTED, AND ONLY THE PIECE OF BRASS THAT IS DENTED!! It opens that piece of brass to .284 like the rest of your brass and you don't have to worry about neck tension issues due to dented case mouths. It is ready to be FL/neck sized with the rest of the cases. Other than this purpose, an expander mandrel has no other purpose in the reloading cycle.
 

4xforfun

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Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
1,482
Then you should rewrite your posting below, it is very explicit. Expander dies have many uses and even bushing dies come with expanders.

NONSENCE. The whole purpose of these posts was to try to explain to one shooter ...ohiohunter.... the process that I use to iron out dented case necks. He didn't understand and was confused, and stated as much in one of his posts.

The post stands as is. I realize that you have a full understanding of all of this stuff. I simply tried to focus ohiohunter on my procedure and what the tools do in this process.

As a side note...again....I can't think of a LR benchrest shooter who uses an expander button in a bushing die. I know that they come with them, but they also come with the delete kit, also.
 

bigedp51

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Dec 10, 2010
Messages
1,022
Why do die manufacturer's put the resizer ball on the end of the rod by the decapping pin? Im getting neck runout issues probably due to the fact that the case is unsupported when it sizes the neck. I have to full length size for this gun. Is there anything I can do to help this?

Yes...throw your die away, along with the expander ball and get a bushing die. I don't even own a die with an expander ball any more. Redding type "S" all around!!!


I'm not posting this to bust your chops 4xforfun "BUT" your first post here tells the OP to throw his die away and get a bushing die and use it without the expander.

The problem with your statement is you must turn the case necks to a uniform thickness and if you do not you are just pushing any neck defects to the inside of the case neck. And this is "WHY" bushing dies come with a expander for the people who do "NOT" neck turn.

Below is a average Remington .223 case with .004 neck thickness variation, and some of these cases had as much as .008 variation in neck thickness.

IMG_2136_zps079ece9b.jpg


IMG_2137_zps66bcfc13.jpg


So "WHY" would anyone want to seat a bullet in a neck that is egg shaped?
Why would anyone use a bushing die with a standard SAAMI chamber when if you reduce the neck diameter .005 or more in a single sizing you will induce neck runout with a bushing die. And this is why it is recommended to size the the neck in two steps when reducing .005 or more.

So anytime you remove the expander from "ANY" die you must turn the necks to make sure the inside of the necks are uniform and not egg shaped.

And the Forster full length benchrest die holds the neck firmly in place as the expander passes through the case neck and does "NOT" pull the necks off center.

So again your postings need to be clear so anyone reading them is not confused and misguided. Bushing dies are designed for tight neck chambers where the neck is only reduced a few thousandth. A bushing floats in the die and can move from side to side and even tilt. And if you don't believe this then use your bushing die on a case like above and see how far out the necks are after sizing.

As a side note...again....I can't think of a LR benchrest shooter who uses an expander button in a bushing die. I know that they come with them, but they also come with the delete kit, also.

And again they do not use the expander because they turn the necks to a uniform neck thickness. And the expander in a bushing die is for the reloaders who do "NOT" turn their necks.

Please read the link below, and notice the custom Forster dies whith the honed necks are using the expander.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

Below from the link above.

Alternative to Bushings — Honed Full-Length dies
Conventional, non-bushing full-length sizing dies can create ultra-accurate ammo with very low run-out.
 

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