Frangible vs pass through

[Calvin45]

Calvin….. your post, with the possible exception of your use of the word "overkill"! memtb

Oh right right that's a dirty word! And I recall from another thread that I defined "overkill" as meaning whenever somebody is shooting a bigger gun than me! . So I guess so long as I'm pulling the trigger the .300 win mag is not overkill as a whitetail round! As you shoot a .375 AI, you definitely are being ridiculous with how overkill your hunting is

 

[cabelasken]

For years I have preferred the Barnes X- bullets in one form or another. They typically produce a 4 to 6" wound channel from start to finish and full penetration is expected - even when a shoulder bone is encountered. I have cleaned enough big game to have seen the destruction that a frangible can inflict - sometimes 1/4 to 1/3 of the animal is wasted - even on elk and especially if multiple shots are used to take the game down. I also like the second hole when tracking game - the first bull I shot with the x-bullet ran straight towards me and the double lung shot produced two spurting holes that I could clearly see as the bull got closer. He required no second shot. The far side hole in the hide showed a 4 petal X. That said, I'm not sure of their performance to extreme ranges and lower velocities as my shots are typically 450 yds or less and impact velocites have been 2400 FPS or more.

 

[comfisherman]

3. Controlled expansion....

 

[memtb]

My less than professional opinion is that the bullets that some hunters consider to be expanding bullets…..I would consider "frangible" bullets.

When a bullet "comes from untogether", with the lead core separating from the jacket and becoming small pieces/particles of lead….this is "my" definition of frangible! memtb

 

[memtb]

3. Controlled expansion....

Like a good mono! memtb

 

[Hand Skills]

Why not 'both'?

The Nosler Partition is a good example of a bullet with a frangible nose and a base that penetrates.

For me the 30cal 180gr Nosler Partition is the standard by which all others are judged.

There are a couple of companies making monolithic (all copper) bullets that behave in this way as well. Cutting Edge Ballistics and Hammer Bullets make bullets designed to 'partially fragment' meaning the nose of the bullet fragments but the base of the bullet remains intact.

If there was the option, I would vote 'both' for the type of hunting (and meat cutting) that I do.

 

[memtb]

Oh right right that's a dirty word! And I recall from another thread that I defined "overkill" as meaning whenever somebody is shooting a bigger gun than me! . So I guess so long as I'm pulling the trigger the .300 win mag is not overkill as a whitetail round! As you shoot a .375 AI, you definitely are being ridiculous with how overkill your hunting is

In my defense…..I don't use frangible (exploding) bullets! memtb

 

[Calvin45]

In my defense…..I don't use frangible (exploding) bullets! memtb

Well that must be why you need such a cannon to take out a deer. Everyone knows those bullets of yours just poke holes…but if the hole is 3/8 of an inch it still works

 

[asd9055]

But I think we all know what he's talking about here. Moreover "frangible" as a word unto itself simply means brittle, or prone to breaking into many fragments. But I do know what you're talking about, the Barnes varmint Grenades and MPG rifle rounds come to mind as do a number of sintered metal core pistol rounds. I don't think anyone is advocating we use those for big game hunting here.

But if we're being technical we could further clarify: controlled expansion with some degree of intended weight retention vs complete fragmentation as the intended outcome.

In my post above, the federal trophy bonded tip is a great example of the former, the hornady eld match is a great example of the latter. Both are extremely effective at killing.

Yes, the majority of us know, but for the un-inform, thyey see the name "frangible" they don't know the difference. I just don't like start calling coal a diamong. Frangible in ammunition, is its own category, and its not hunting.

 

[Calvin45]

Yes, the majority of us know, but for the un-inform, thyey see the name "frangible" they don't know the difference. I just don't like start calling coal a diamong. Frangible in ammunition, is its own category, and its not hunting.

not trying to be argumentative! But if bullets like Berger vlds, hornady eld match, and sierra TMKs aren't supposed to be called "frangible" in regards to their terminal behaviour what should we call them? Fragmenting and frangible are synonyms.

I suppose at the end of the day semantics is everything, sort of like what makes a varmint bullet a varmint bullet or, for that matter, a hunting bullet a hunting bullet. Whether that's calling coal a diamond I don't know, but i do know that "varmint bullets" have been used to take big game, big game bullets have been used to take varmints, "match" bullets are in some cases more effective killers than "hunting bullets", and whether you want to call them frangible or not the bullets i mentioned earlier do come apart, sometimes completely, and may or may not exit but exit wounds are not what they're designed to provide. They don't hold together because they're not meant to.

 

[asd9055]

Call it anything you want. When I load frangible in my home defense handgun or 5.56, is so they dont go through the ceiling or walls and hit my family.

 

[Calvin45]

Call it anything you want. When I load frangible in my home defense handgun or 5.56, is so they dont go through the ceiling or walls and hit my family.

Yep makes sense. Let the record reflect! As I am not recommending true powdered metal or varmint bullets for big game hunting, neither am I implying that match bullets don't go through walls!

Just out of pure curiosity, what bullet do you load in the 556 for that purpose that doesn't penetrate walls or ceilings, and have you actually verified that these bullets won't? That's pretty impressive when I think about it, a full power load that doesn't endanger people on the other side of an ordinary wall! The barnes varmint grenade immediately comes to mind, but I'm curious if anyone has done any actual testing on drywall with a target behind it or something?

 

[marksman1941]

my preference is a bonded bullet that passes through. There are some caveats. First, I live on the west coast which means 1 deer per year, and a low success rate on elk. That's not a lot of bullet testing compared to the midwesterners who can shoot 5 does and a buck every year. So my sample size is limited to about 10 deer. But I've killed all of them with a 165 federal trophy bonded tip out of a 30-06, all shots within 100 yards, and every deer has ran 30 yards and wadded up. I have a tendency to center punch shoulders, which makes for a quick kill but there is some meat loss for sure. Maybe 1/3 of one front shoulder will be lost at most, and the pass through has never hit the opposite shoulder so far. Nothing has died right there, but nothing needed trailed either.

I have used two other other bullets, once each. One was a Norma Oryx 180gr (bonded but softer than the trophy bonds) on a bear at 350 with a high shoulder shot. The bear dropped on impact and gave out the death moan in about 30 seconds.

Finally, I shot the same buck twice with 100gr Hornady interlocks in a 243. Once at 90yds in the neck, once at 30 yards in the shoulder. Never found him. I have lots of speculation, but the end result is a deer that probably died elsewhere and fed some coyotes.

I have no experience in frangible/fragmenting/rapidly expanding bullets. I expect for a soft vitals shot they would be exceptional, but the chance of whacking bone and potentially having a failure to penetrate seems higher risk. Now, if a person reads the ".223 for moose" thread on Rokslide about the wonders of the 77gr TMK, one might gain a different opinion. Since I have never tried a TMK of a frangible on a critter I can't judge. But, I know I'll keep using bonded bullets as that's what has worked great for me so far.

 

[bultinkle]

In a perfect world I love a frangible that still exits, I'm just not going to give up the massive trauma for extra penetration past what I believe is useful to me.

I tend gravitate to heavy for caliber frangible bullets that also exit on broadside and quartering shots but would not expect them to exit a shot through the rear.

150sst vs 225 eldm/212eldx. Both options are frangibles, but we expect them to penetrate differently