First shot - clean bore

[FrontierGander]

I know some shooters have issues with their first shot being off a bit or maybe even up to 2-4 inches.

I took the CVA Optima out the NRA Whittington Center today just for a little fun since it was nice and warm.

Loaded up 100gr blackhorn209, cci 209m primer and a .500" 250gr Thor conical and took my first shot.

Right on the money!

Took shot #2 and opened the hole, Pulled slightly on #3 but overall, I was extremely pleased with the 100 yard group.

I re-sighted with the 300gr powerbelt Aerolite with 100gr BH209 since I have more of those than I do Thors. Just time to wait for cooler weather to settle in before shooting any more.

Saved the primers to show how clean they were.

I sent another 15 round downs range at the silhouettes and the Thor I shot made that pig Silho ring like a church bell!

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

That's great, I brush my bore after every 3 shots on the range seams to help my rifle.

 

[FrontierGander]

That's great, I brush my bore after every 3 shots on the range seams to help my rifle.

No need for that with blackhorn209 gun)

 

[Rem700addict]

FrontierGander, that's an awesome group that you've put together it seems you have your combo dialed in real well. But I don't think that your groups would be the same with a saboted bullet, I feel with the sabot you either are dialed for a clean shot or a dirty barrel. I'm sure the Thor bullets are probably the more accurate bullets out there without sabots, I just feel the results wouldn't be the same with a sabot. Please prove me wrong and give me your load setup, I would love to have all mine grouping like that.

 

[woodnut]

FrontierGander, I'd like to echo what Rem700 addict said and add the question where did you find those Thor bullets? They kinda look like Powerbelts in that it appears to have an attached base? And the answers to Rem700 addict are???

 

[FrontierGander]

Oh sorry guys! Those bullets in the picture are actually the 250gr powerbelt aerolites.

Heres the Thors. www.thorbullets.com a bit expensive but you wont find a better quality conical IMO. Its basically a barnes but in full bore diameter.

I honestly feel that the type of cleaner you use in the barrel WILL drastically change first shot POI. I did some work on a friends gun and used remington 40x bore cleaner, took it to the 100 yard range, first shot was 3" high and then the next 3 dropped dead center but off to the left. 6 clicks to the right and perfectly center.

Watch the video

 

[FrontierGander]

FrontierGander, that's an awesome group that you've put together it seems you have your combo dialed in real well. But I don't think that your groups would be the same with a saboted bullet, I feel with the sabot you either are dialed for a clean shot or a dirty barrel. I'm sure the Thor bullets are probably the more accurate bullets out there without sabots, I just feel the results wouldn't be the same with a sabot. Please prove me wrong and give me your load setup, I would love to have all mine grouping like that.

110gr Blackhorn209, CCI 209M primers, Barnes 250gr TMZ "Yellow sabot" 150 yards. I think I held a LITTLE lower on shot #2. Overall I was pleased. This was another gun i had worked on for a gentleman.

If you are looking for a sabot load and its a cva, i'd recommend the barnes T-Ez as the yellow sabots I was using were a gut wrencher to load. I have a solid SS range rod and that sucker was bowing in the middle while loading them. Theres no possible way you would load them with the factory ramrod and the palm of your hand.

 

[Rem700addict]

Thanks for the video Gander your groups are looking more then amazing. However that said and I don't mean this as an argument, but your first shot was still high and off from the main grouping. The more I think about that first shot as a hunter maybe I should sight my gun for that first shot out of a clean bore. For target shooting, those groups under 1" looks great for 2,3,4 shots. I guess it's the preference of the shooter, but after 2,3,4 shots with the BH209 the barrell is still fairly coroded and I wouldn't want to leave it that unclean for a whole season or have to find a range to unload a couple rounds before my hunt. Hunting, I want that first shot to be dead on and I don't think that first clean bore shot will ever be close to your 2,3,4 shots. Thanks again for the video and load info, BH209 is by far my favorite powder and i'm loving it as much as my Optima.

 

[FrontierGander]

Thanks for the video Gander your groups are looking more then amazing. However that said and I don't mean this as an argument, but your first shot was still high and off from the main grouping. The more I think about that first shot as a hunter maybe I should sight my gun for that first shot out of a clean bore. For target shooting, those groups under 1" looks great for 2,3,4 shots. I guess it's the preference of the shooter, but after 2,3,4 shots with the BH209 the barrell is still fairly coroded and I wouldn't want to leave it that unclean for a whole season or have to find a range to unload a couple rounds before my hunt. Hunting, I want that first shot to be dead on and I don't think that first clean bore shot will ever be close to your 2,3,4 shots. Thanks again for the video and load info, BH209 is by far my favorite powder and i'm loving it as much as my Optima.

Yep it was high, thats why i mentioned i used a new cleaner in that bore the previous night and that was remington 40x bore cleaner, it has a bit of grittiness to it and it reacts much differently than my normal cleaner does.

 

[Rem700addict]

You know to think of it Frontier, my first clean bore shots have been about exactly the same as your experience here. My first clean bore shot was 3-4 inches high but right down the center. Then my next couple of shots went down to the bull and stayed there. When I make my next trip to the range i'm going to try and shot a group cleaning between each shot to see if my group stays the same as my dirty bore group. If so i'm going to adjust my scope accordingly.

 

[ENCORE]

Fouling or no fouling makes a significent difference in some rifles, while making little to none in others. Even of the same manfacturer and model. Not only may completely clean (not just swabbed) barrels shoot to a different POI, they also load with different forces. Loading force is different than bullet seating force by the way.

NOTE......... The definition of clean which I'm using, is cleaned as it would be stored and not just swabbed, what some consider to be "clean".

I've measured ten's of thousands of force measurements. I've used some of the most advanced measuring equipment available, including accelerometers, to compare acceleration and force evaluations. There's one right way and every other way is wrong. Part of my profession before retirement....

That said, I've tested different barrels that were completely clean and having used different lubricants for storage, before being shot and completely clean and after being shot and fouled with BH209. The measurement can be considered very consistant between all the different barrels and manufacturers, regardless which lube was used for complete cleaning and storage. Bullet/sabots loaded an average of 30# lighter with a clean bore. Regardless of the loading force for the specific barrel, the average loading force between clean and fouled was 30#. Regardless of what one may think, 30#'s is a significent difference and even a simple example will indicate that....... use just your thumb on a bathroom scale and push it down until it reaches 10#, then push it down until it hits 40#. NOTE...... I do not use bathroom scales for measuring force, but an $800 calibrated precision instrument.

My personal favorite Pro Hunter, loads with a clean barrel, after being swabbed with two clean patches and ONLY two primers fired, at an average of 32#'s (+/-2#) of force to move the bullet in the barrel. Once my barrel is fouled (shot), it averages 52#'s (+/-4#). This rifle also has a significent difference in POI with a clean or fouled barrel. The POI would be acceptable to some for just close range shooting but, if the first shot may happen to be at long range, I wouldn't take the shot, especially at 200yds.

I shot an example target which shows what my specific Pro Hunter does with a clean vs a fouled barrel. No matter what brand of rifle I've owned in the past, which has included H&R, CVA, Knight and T/C, I've always fired two fouling shots prior to a hunt, short of when using 2f back in the day. With BH209 comming out, I leave my rifle loaded for extended periods of time fouled, with absolutely no concern what so ever. Only exception would be that if I fell in a creek or got caught in the pouring rain.

The following target photo shows what this specific rifle does, regardless of the lubrication type/brand in the barrel.

 

[woodnut]

Encore, you seem to be the right authority to ask this question. I was in a hurry, mistake #1, and all Bellms had was a blued/chrome moly Bergara barrel so I bought it. Now, would you leave that kind of barrel fouled for an extended (re: weeks) time?
Thanks for the tip on the # of fouling shots. I knew one would be out, the first, but I was thinking the next few was just a so so group! You caused me to rethink. Been too used to centerfire shooting. I've shot rifles and shotguns for over 50 years (yeah, I'm an old geezer) but shooting inlines is a new adventure and I have a lot to learn about them. BH209 just added an even newer dimension to the course ! Aaaarrrr!

 

[FrontierGander]

I'd run a couple dry patches to mop out the fouling. BH209 cleans up very easily and so if you knock out the fouling with the patches, it will still be fouled but that fouling will not attract moisture and cause rust.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore, you seem to be the right authority to ask this question. I was in a hurry, mistake #1, and all Bellms had was a blued/chrome moly Bergara barrel so I bought it. Now, would you leave that kind of barrel fouled for an extended (re: weeks) time?
Thanks for the tip on the # of fouling shots. I knew one would be out, the first, but I was thinking the next few was just a so so group! You caused me to rethink. Been too used to centerfire shooting. I've shot rifles and shotguns for over 50 years (yeah, I'm an old geezer) but shooting inlines is a new adventure and I have a lot to learn about them. BH209 just added an even newer dimension to the course ! Aaaarrrr!

Know the feeling about age. I keep telling these young guys that when they get older, they'll realize why they make tall toilets!

First, what do you mean by weeks? BH209 is quite a bit different than other muzzleloader propellants, as it doesn't suck up moisture. That still doesn't mean that the right amount of moisture and conditions, won't cause some rust over a longer period of time.

Although I personally do things probably different than most, I have no problems leaving my Pro Hunter loaded, depending on weather, for two weeks or more. Our regular firearm deer season started on Nov 15th and runs through the 30th. I shot a few rounds on the 10th, loaded it for hunting and let it set. I gave it a thorough cleaning on Dec 3rd. What I may do, depending on the weather, is to just shoot the load and then reload it again. Our muzzleloader season starts Dec 14th and I zeroed it for 150yds about four days ago then, loaded it for hunting. NOTE: I always have a lubed rag that I wipe the rifle down with.....

If you foul it and leave it for a week and its not been exposed rain or, taken inside and out, just fire off the round and reload for the next week. When cold, I leave my case outside and cold, put the rifle in the cold case then, take it inside the garage which is warmer than outside. It will not let that warm air create that immediate moisture and warm the rifle to garage temp slowly.

Here's what you should do........ Do exactly what you feel comfortable with. I'd rather give you that recommendation. Some won't leave a rifle fouled over night, regardless and that's ok. Its their comfort that counts. I've left my Pro Hunter fouled for over three weeks, with complete confidence. My barrel is perfect.