Clean bore vs dirty...

[Bigeclipse]

Ok All...I am new to muzzleloaders and had a quick question. My muzzleloader(CVA optima V2) groups very nice with 777 pellets and 250 grain TMZs. I get about an inch at 100 yards so NO complaints there (this after a fouling shot). The only thing I did notice is the CLEAN bore shot actually goes about 4 inches low(this is consistant) I tried MANY clean bore shots and everytime they were about 4 inches low of the dirty bore shots. So here is my problem...I CANNOT shoot fouling shots the mornings of my hunts (my father-in-laws property and he is crazy anal about things including no shooting before light) and obviously you cannot leave the bore dirty on these muzzleloaders over night as they can start rusting/corroding so for this weekends hunt I decided to simply zero my muzzleloader for the clean bore shot and just remember that my follow up shot will be 4 inches higher at 100 yards. But in the future...I was wondering what you all do about the clean bore thing. I even tried dirting the clean bore with firing several primers and that didnt work. Still went low.

 

[ENCORE]

Just a suggestion and what many shooters with the same rifle have done, is to purchase the breech plug to shoot BH209. Then go ahead and fire your fouling shot, load it and leave it loaded.

DON'T take it in and out of a warm vehicle or from the bitter cold inside the house. BH doesn't suck up moisture like the other propellants do. Leave your case where its cold and put it back in the case after hunting, then if you want to take it into the garage over night, the case won't let that quick burst of warmth to the rifle. It'll allow it to warm to garage temps without sucking up moisture. It is recommended that you use an oil cloth for the outside of the rifle though.

If.... you're worried about moisture when using BH, put a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle.

I foul and then load for the opener. If I don't shoot it, it remains loaded until the end of the regular firearm season, fire and clean it. We have close to two weeks in my area before the muzzleloading season starts (tomorrow ). I fired two fouling rounds about an hour ago, its loaded and will remain loaded for two weeks or, until I fill tags.

As always............ do what YOU think is best for your rifle.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Just a suggestion and what many shooters with the same rifle have done, is to purchase the breech plug to shoot BH209. Then go ahead and fire your fouling shot, load it and leave it loaded.

DON'T take it in and out of a warm vehicle or from the bitter cold inside the house. BH doesn't suck up moisture like the other propellants do. Leave your case where its cold and put it back in the case after hunting, then if you want to take it into the garage over night, the case won't let that quick burst of warmth to the rifle. It'll allow it to warm to garage temps without sucking up moisture. It is recommended that you use an oil cloth for the outside of the rifle though.

If.... you're worried about moisture when using BH, put a piece of electrical tape over the muzzle.

I foul and then load for the opener. If I don't shoot it, it remains loaded until the end of the regular firearm season, fire and clean it. We have close to two weeks in my area before the muzzleloading season starts (tomorrow ). I fired two fouling rounds about an hour ago, its loaded and will remain loaded for two weeks or, until I fill tags.

As always............ do what YOU think is best for your rifle.

Encore, I appreciate your advice. I actually already have the BH209 breechplug. I ordered it with my rifle last week(with the intention of getting blackhorn powder). Unfortunately the only powder I could find was the 777 pellets and that is what I am sighted in for our muzzleloader season which is this week only. I will only be able to hunt tomorrow through sunday. I will take your advice for next years season when i actually can find the black horn powder and work up a load. I know the blackhorn stuff is much less dirty/corrosive than standard blackpowders and pellets but I thought it still was corrosive and people suggested to still clean after every day of use. If you find this not to be the case then i will follow your instructions of shooting a fouling round before the opener next year and taking off the barrel and leaving the rifle in the cold until it is shot. Thank you for your advice.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore, I appreciate your advice. I actually already have the BH209 breechplug. I ordered it with my rifle last week(with the intention of getting blackhorn powder). Unfortunately the only powder I could find was the 777 pellets and that is what I am sighted in for our muzzleloader season which is this week only. I will only be able to hunt tomorrow through sunday. I will take your advice for next years season when i actually can find the black horn powder and work up a load. I know the blackhorn stuff is much less dirty/corrosive than standard blackpowders and pellets but I thought it still was corrosive and people suggested to still clean after every day of use. If you find this not to be the case then i will follow your instructions of shooting a fouling round before the opener next year and taking off the barrel and leaving the rifle in the cold until it is shot. Thank you for your advice.

What I will say is its the case with my rifle and, I know many other shooter/hunters here in Michigan that do the identical thing. I have a SS Pro Hunter 209x50 that I've done this with since it came out of the box. I did so with my Encores, all SS, since I could get my hands on BH209.
I was never much of a T7 shooter. Never liked that stuff and used Pyrodex or 2f instead. Just my preference. I'd do pretty much the same thing back then but, after 3 or 4 days, I'd touch off the rifle and just reload it. Rather I was lucky or what, I didn't have any barrel problems. Actually the truth be known, I was hammering the deer on the farm enough, that it never had a chance to rust.

So its entirely up to you. I'm just letting you know what I'm doing and without problems. You know the saying: "Your results may vary."

 

[Red Sparky]

Same thing with my T/C but first shot is always 4" high and 4" right out of a clean barrel. I use pyrodex and shoot fouling shot and then leave it loaded until season is over or I get something. Our season is only a week long here and living in the desert SW moisture is not much of a problem. The only time the ML is exposed to heat is about 30 minutes a day, turning the heater on in the tent first thing in the morning.

So do what you think is best but I have never had a problem leaving the ML loaded after a fouling shot under the conditions I hunt. I even left it loaded one year when I had a week break between elk and deer season. I was hunting deer with elk loads .

 

[FrontierGander]

does the clean bore by chance have any oil/bore butter in it?

If its consistently 4" low, I'd just make up for it and adjust in the field. 100-150 yards, 4" isnt that big of an adjustment.

 

[ENCORE]

does the clean bore by chance have any oil/bore butter in it?

If its consistently 4" low, I'd just make up for it and adjust in the field. 100-150 yards, 4" isnt that big of an adjustment.

4" low at 100yds equates to much lower, 8" to 9" lower at 150yds and, that's if he's getting at least 2,000fps. Start with a lower velocity and it will drop considerably more. If he's also shooting 4" to the right, that's now going to equate to 8" to 9" right at 150yds.

IMO its more than enough "adjustment" to NEVER guess that shot. I'm also of the opinion that if a shooter doesn't ABSOLUTELY KNOW where his/her shot is going to hit, they should NOT be taking that shot. We owe it to the animal we're hunting.

I live in a state where there's 700,000 deer hunters, with 24% of them using a muzzleloader as their primary firearm during the regular firearm season, not just the designated muzzleloader season.

That said, it is a known fact with some rifle barrels, it doesn't matter rather they're spick and span clean, with "0" lubricant, they just will not shoot the first shot to POI of shots when fouled. PERIOD. Many shooters have reported this and it doesn't really matter which brand of rifle it may be. Some T/C's, some CVA and some Traditions will not shoot accurately from a clean dry bore. There are some, but a very limited number. I've shot up to 4,000 a year from Encore platform rifles since "97" and never once had one that would shoot the same POI clean as once fouled. My current Pro Hunter, "Bad Medicine" is another example. It shoots 4" high and 2" right with the first shot, second shot drops to 3" high and 1" right and all the others make one quarter size hole. I'm by far a weekend, one month shooter and I will NOT take that shot. If it means fouling the barrel to absolutely know where my bullet is going, that's what I have to do to KNOW and not Kentucky guess.

If you don't know........ never take the shot.

 

[FrontierGander]

easiest way to fix that is to try different cleaners. The 2 in 1 bore scrubber doesnt do a thing to my rifles. Remington 40x bore cleaner, bore butter, that crap really throws my first shots off.

 

[Red Sparky]

I must agree with Encore in post #7. My T/C doesn't care if there is bore butter in it or if all I do is run T/C#13 bore cleaner and dry patches. Even if I store with bore butter I always run dry patches down the barrel before shooting. The first shot is always high and right and then center of the bull until I clean the barrel.

Some of my first shots have been at 200 yards. I would hate to do this with a "clean" barrel since I know how my T/C behaves. I have a fouled barrel since I know it will put every shot in the bulls eye with a "dirty" barrel, I just have to adjust for trajectory.

 

[Bigeclipse]

thanks all for thd help. I knew that dirty bore will group better just like regular rifles...I was mainly concernex with fouling the muzzleloader righg before our muzzleloader and then it being ruined by the corrosive powder.since our muzzleloader season is only a week long during cold part of the year I will simpld do a fouling shot in the begining and then wrap the muzzle with a baloon to help preveng moisture buildup and also leave the rifle outside in the cold

 

[lester7009]

I use Optima V2 and can,t tell that much difference between the two. The edge for me is clean Bore. Have shot 15 rounds of Pyrodex RS with Side Kick without cleaning the bore , even with crude ring grouped 2 1/2" @ 100 yds. But cleaning Bore after each shot I can get a 1" group @100yds.