Die Set-up Recommendation

[SquirrelShooter]

So, I been using plain old 2 or 3 die sets for the last 40 years (actually, I even used the Lee bench-type die/primer/plastic powder scoop for 45LC in my early teens), and think it is time I graduated.

What is the consensus for die set-up recommendation (i.e. mandrels and how many; bushings and how many; priming tool - I use the cheaper RCBS hand-jobber from 20 ya; etc.)?

I have a Rockchucker press; I use powder graphite on case necks, and chapstick on the bottom ½ of my cases (I have an old 2-sided eye contact case filled with each that I just flip for the particular process). Never have annealed, but have a buddy that has one, so will begin doing that.

Do people still chamfer case necks with the advent of mandrels?

Do people still just neck-size (that's what I do with my 300WM)?

I have 3 cartridges I load: 300WM, 308W, & 6.5PRC.

Thanks,

Joey

 

[Starbuck]

I've run a lot of different die set ups through the years. Bushing dies are a good option and seem to be what many precision shooters run. My bushing dies are older RCBS competition series or the newer RCBS Match Master's.

My favorite arrangement is probably a Redding body die or bushing die with the bushing removed, Lee collet neck die (LCD), RCBS match master seating die and Redding competition shell holders. With this combination, brass is minimally worked and lasts a long time, even without annealing, though doing so improves consistency and brass life.

I usually fire brass around 2 times before bumping shoulders, but I keep a close eye on case dimensions with a head space comparator and feeding checks. When it seems like the brass has formed to the chamber as far as its going to to go, I bump the shoulder back just a couple of thousands with the Redding body die or bushing die and competition shell holders. The competition shell holders allow the shell holder to square up with die bottom and the ram to bottom out; this takes any play in the press out of the equasion, yielding very consistent brass dimensions.

The LCD forms the neck around a mandrel using a collet on the outside. It only works the brass one way instead of forming it tight and then pulling an expander ball back through. It produces cases with very little to 0 run out. Neck tension can be adjusted through ordering different sized mandrels.

I know some guys like to use the bushing dies to leave a false shoulder. I get the concept, but I haven't noticed accuracy improvements over neck forming with the LCD.

For trimming I use a Lee Quick trim with the Redding Competition shell holders to set trim length. This maintains proper neck length while minimally bumping the shoulder back. The Quick trimmer puts a slight chamfer on the inside and outside of the case mouth.

Good luck in your efforts. Please report in with what you end up with and your results.

 

[SquirrelShooter]

I've run a lot of different die set ups through the years. Bushing dies are a good option and seem to be what many precision shooters run. My bushing dies are older RCBS competition series or the newer RCBS Match Master's.

My favorite arrangement is probably a Redding body die or bushing die with the bushing removed, Lee collet neck die (LCD), RCBS match master seating die and Redding competition shell holders. With this combination, brass is minimally worked and lasts a long time, even without annealing, though doing so correctly improves consistency and brass life.

I usually fire brass around 2 times before bumping shoulders, but I keep a close eye on case dimensions with a head space comparator and feeding checks. When it seems like the brass has formed to the chamber as far as its going to to go, I bump the shoulder back just a couple of thousands with the Redding body die or bushing die and competition shell holders. The competition shell holders allow the shell holder to square up with die bottom and the ram to bottom out; this takes any play in the press out of the equasion, yielding very consistent brass dimensions.

The LCD forms the neck around a mandrel using a collet on the outside. It only works the brass one way instead of forming it tight and then pulling an expander ball back through. It produces cases with very little to 0 run out. Neck tension can be adjusted through ordering different sized mandrels.

I know some guys like to use the bushing dies to leave a false shoulder. I get the concept, but I haven't noticed accuracy improvements over neck forming with the LCD.

Good luck. Please report in with what you end up with and your results.

Say, thanks for such a great explanation! I need to read it a few times to digest it.

I was wrong about my press... it is the RS2, not Rockchucker. When you mention shell holder, you are referring to the type RCBS and similar piston presses use correct?... or like the Forster CoAx?

Thanks!

 

[Starbuck]

The Redding custom shell holders have different thicknesses above the case rim. This allows for adjusting how far the case goes into a die while still enabling the ram to be pushed tight to the die. The same can be accomplished through adjusting and or shimming the die, but it's less precise in terms of adjusting and there's always some degree of play in a press.

The competition shell holders are for presses that push the case into a fixed die. Presses that push the die over a shell adjust shoulder bump via die position.

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

Regarding neck sizing:

 

[SquirrelShooter]

I've run a lot of different die set ups through the years. Bushing dies are a good option and seem to be what many precision shooters run. My bushing dies are older RCBS competition series or the newer RCBS Match Master's.

My favorite arrangement is probably a Redding body die or bushing die with the bushing removed, Lee collet neck die (LCD), RCBS match master seating die and Redding competition shell holders. With this combination, brass is minimally worked and lasts a long time, even without annealing, though doing so improves consistency and brass life.

I usually fire brass around 2 times before bumping shoulders, but I keep a close eye on case dimensions with a head space comparator and feeding checks. When it seems like the brass has formed to the chamber as far as its going to to go, I bump the shoulder back just a couple of thousands with the Redding body die or bushing die and competition shell holders. The competition shell holders allow the shell holder to square up with die bottom and the ram to bottom out; this takes any play in the press out of the equasion, yielding very consistent brass dimensions.

The LCD forms the neck around a mandrel using a collet on the outside. It only works the brass one way instead of forming it tight and then pulling an expander ball back through. It produces cases with very little to 0 run out. Neck tension can be adjusted through ordering different sized mandrels.

I know some guys like to use the bushing dies to leave a false shoulder. I get the concept, but I haven't noticed accuracy improvements over neck forming with the LCD.

For trimming I use a Lee Quick trim with the Redding Competition shell holders to set trim length. This maintains proper neck length while minimally bumping the shoulder back. The Quick trimmer puts a slight chamfer on the inside and outside of the case mouth.

Good luck in your efforts. Please report in with what you end up with and your results.

Say SB, may I ask what press you use with those shell holders?... this is still a little Greek to me.

 

[Starbuck]

Say SB, may I ask what press you use with those shell holders?... this is still a little Greek to me.

I use them on a Lee classic cast and an RCBS.

They come in a kit that ranges 10 thousandths in .002 increments.

Natchez

www.natchezss.com

 

[SquirrelShooter]

I use them on a Lee classic cast and an RCBS.

They come in a kit that ranges 10 thousandths in .002 increments.

Natchez

www.natchezss.com

Thanks!

 

[Jester896]

if your only loading for three calibers you could modify a standard shell holder and keep it with the set of dies you use it with instead of spending extra for a bigger set. A can of Imperial Die wax might prove better than chap stick. Oh... and watch the EC video. Redding F/L bushing dies can double as a body die if needed...RCBS has changed theirs and you may be able to do it with them as well.

 

[SquirrelShooter]

if your only loading for three calibers you could modify a standard shell holder and keep it with the set of dies you use it with instead of spending extra for a bigger set. A can of Imperial Die wax might prove better than chap stick. Oh... and watch the EC video. Redding F/L bushing dies can double as a body die if needed...RCBS has changed theirs and you may be able to do it with them as well.

Yes, I watched the video, and see/saw the signs of which he was speaking. So, back in the day, full length sizing was that... or so it seemed: all the way back. Now that I'm picking up some of the terms, SB a few 1/1000 makes much better sense... I'm educated!

The bushing die can function as body die bc you can remove bushing without interfering with the neck when cycling correct?

Also, going to upgrade my press: sticking with RCBS, but haven't decided on the Summit or RC Supreme. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[Starbuck]

if your only loading for three calibers you could modify a standard shell holder and keep it with the set of dies you use it with instead of spending extra for a bigger set. A can of Imperial Die wax might prove better than chap stick. Oh... and watch the EC video. Redding F/L bushing dies can double as a body die if needed...RCBS has changed theirs and you may be able to do it with them as well.

It's been awhile since I watched the EC anti neck size video, but IIRC, he's not full length sizing in the traditional sense of going back to pre fire form dimensions. Instead, he's advocating for a couple thousandths shoulder bump, which is generally what I do after the cases are fully formed, which can take a few firings, especially with belted magnums, which can have pretty generous room ahead of the shoulder.

I would put it back to most guys who frequently resize that there's a good chance they're overworking their brass. Until you're getting close or at positive headspace territory where you can feel the bass ever so slightly get pushed to the chamber when the bolt closes, I don't generally bump the shoulder back; and when I do, it's only the minimum I need to make sure I don't get any surprises or hiccups when chambering cartridges.

 

[SquirrelShooter]

It's been awhile since I watched the EC anti neck size video, but IIRC, he's not full length sizing in the traditional sense of going back to pre fire form dimensions. Instead, he's advocating for a couple thousandths shoulder bump, which is generally what I do after the cases are fully formed, which can take a few firings, especially with belted magnums, which can have pretty generous room ahead of the shoulder.

I would put it back to most guys who frequently resize that there's a good chance they're overworking their brass. Until you're getting close or at positive headspace territory where you can feel the bass ever so slightly get pushed to the chamber when the bolt closes, I don't generally bump the shoulder back; and when I do, it's only the minimum I need to make sure I don't get any surprises or hiccups when feeding from the magazine.

..."not FL resizing in the traditional sense"... that's what I'm gathering.

I was told by a renowned (I mean top-of-the-line) barrel maker 15ya that one's 1st FF load should be a light load (starting charge) of medium burn powder (relative to the appropriate cartridge), with a mid-weight bullet... this gives the brass its initial, loving shove towards chamber dimensions.

Are you checking shoulder bump (when it is needed) with head-space gauge (before and after firing)... the chamber too?

 

[Starbuck]

I had never heard that advice for fire forming, but it makes sense. I generally start with a lower power charge with new brass, but not specifically because it's good for the brass or the forming process; instead, for me it's part of the load development process. If I can find a mild to medium load that's accurate, it's where I prefer to be. Keeping loads in the midrange avoids all kinds of issues that arise from loads that are a little too hot. An extra 100 FPS isn't a deal breaker for me, and if I think I really need more than what a certain cartridge can give comfortably, I get a bigger case. A lot of guns seem to shoot best with a spicy load; in those situations it is what it is.

I keep a close eye on shoulder/case growth with a hradspace comparator and with frequent chambering of fired brass. Certain guns/cartridges will smoothly chamber cases fired 3 times or more without being at positive headspace; in these situations, I don't see the utility in bumping the shoulder as long as the case dimensions remain consistent between firings.

I should add that I'm not a serious competitive shooter. Only good natured competitions between friends. I try to squeeze the most accuracy out of the process because I figure that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well. Some of the more serious competitors will likely have different techniques to squeeze the most accuracy out, and I hope a few reply as Im always hoping to learn new things as well.

 

[SquirrelShooter]

I had never heard that advice for fire forming, but it makes sense. I generally start with a lower power charge with new brass, but not specifically because it's good for the brass or the forming process; instead, for me it's part of the load development process. If I can find a mild to medium load that's accurate, it's where I prefer to be. Keeping loads in the midrange avoids all kinds of issues that arise from loads that are a little too hot. An extra 100 FPS isn't a deal breaker for me, and if I think I really need more than what a certain cartridge can give comfortably, I get a bigger case. A lot of guns seem to shoot best with a spicy load; in those situations it is what it is.

I keep a close eye on shoulder/case growth with a hradspace comparator and with frequent chambering of fired brass. Certain guns/cartridges will smoothly chamber cases fired 3 times or more without being at positive headspace; in these situations, I don't see the utility in bumping the shoulder as long as the case dimensions remain consistent between firings.

I should add that I'm not a serious competitive shooter. Only good natured competitions between friends. I try to squeeze the most accuracy out of the process because I figure that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well. Some of the more serious competitors will likely have different techniques to squeeze the most accuracy out, and I hope a few reply as Im always hoping to learn new things as well.

So, over the last 15 yrs of loading my 300WM based on the neck-size concept I mentioned, I've only run across a firm-fitting load occasionally using Winchester brass. I worked up my load in conjunction with the fellers at Alliant using RL25 (this was like right b4 they came with 26, but I was stuck with several pounds of the stuff).

I shoot that gun as little as possible after having worked up my load (I will prolly be back at it once I upgrade my components to see what I can achieve). I use it for shooting deer, and have a one shot theory (though it may be askew): I got one cold-bore shot out to 980yds... that's what I train to do. It may be weeks (months) before that big-__ buck or coyote steps out at 100 - 980, and it will be a cold-bore shot with that gun. Actually, I don't have a can or brake; and, I'm a cheap-skate on burning up a bunch of ammo.

I do stay lubed up with my AR's, 22 and 308 at pesky critters throughout the year... a little bit of window time in the summer months.

I'm looking forward to the 6.5 PRC and getting back into more frequent medium range shooting (500-700... I got a big coyote crossing) that's a little more pleasurable dining experience.

Thanks!