Dead soft brass!
- Thread starter BoatTail
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mth00005
Well-Known Member
I know it's on youtube, but check out. gunblue490. he should write book, before his info is lost.
I'm not saying he's correct. make your own conclusion
I'm not saying he's correct. make your own conclusion
kiwikid
Well-Known Member
yorke-1 misinforming the OP is the last thing I intended to do and as you state if the bases of the cases have been exposed to too much heat then the cases need to be scrapped. In post No 21 Long Bomber suggested running the cases through a FL die 4 or 5 times. All I was trying to do was indicate that there is reliable information available and where to find it.
kiwikid.
I would do a compression test of some kind....
New vs annealed vs "over annealed"...
I use the finger method..holding well done the case and pointing burner at neck to mouth angle...heat is still going to transfer towards the base but I haven't 'burnt' my fingers...and i seem to get decent annealings....
I also work in a lit room and do not look for 'glowing' orange..
Twisting the case slowly with the wrist seems to heat it quite evenly...
280ai, .223, 26 nosler, .223, 65284
All three larger cartridges have been annealed..the 280ai and 26 tumbled afterwards and the 65 loaded after annealing....havent had one problem other than not getting out to shoot... .223 are factory loaded used for size comparison, and factory annealed coloration....
New vs annealed vs "over annealed"...
I use the finger method..holding well done the case and pointing burner at neck to mouth angle...heat is still going to transfer towards the base but I haven't 'burnt' my fingers...and i seem to get decent annealings....
I also work in a lit room and do not look for 'glowing' orange..
Twisting the case slowly with the wrist seems to heat it quite evenly...
280ai, .223, 26 nosler, .223, 65284
All three larger cartridges have been annealed..the 280ai and 26 tumbled afterwards and the 65 loaded after annealing....havent had one problem other than not getting out to shoot... .223 are factory loaded used for size comparison, and factory annealed coloration....
NEMTHunter
Well-Known Member
Very nice!!!
DUSTY NOGGIN
Well-Known Member
i use one of the home made jobbies. which, has the potentiometer to speed up or slow down the rotation of the pan. It will drop a hot case about every 5 seconds. I made the mistake once of letting them drop into a coffee can, and allowed them to just pile up to about 3/4 full, the heat level was way more than the 260 degrees.. as the previous post, because the can did not let the heat escape and just kept adding more heat to the pile .. not saying that his post was wrong for his testing, .Kiwikids test likely gave each case its own cooling time and if given each case its own time to cool, i agree quenching is NOT required.. just that there are people like me that screw up anything
for safety sake
, i tossed the whole can ... luckily they were just cheaper 223 cases
i dont water quench , cause drying em after takes too long ... but i do make sure they dont pile up anymore
for safety sake
, i tossed the whole can ... luckily they were just cheaper 223 cases
i dont water quench , cause drying em after takes too long ... but i do make sure they dont pile up anymore
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kiwikid
Well-Known Member
Dusty Noggin you are correct, for my testing I stood each case on top of the temp probe that was sitting on top of a wooden bench. When I use the AMP I place the hot annealed cases side by side on an aluminium tray which acts as a heat sink. It would be interesting to dump a heap of hot cases into a can to see what temp they reached.
I forgot....as i learned making lead bullets for my mzldr...i started dropping them 'onto' wet towels...cooler temps didn't harden my lead bullets and the cooled quite quick(few minutes)...and that lead got way hotter than the annealed brass....
hunter0528
Well-Known Member
I remember many moons ago in an old Lyman manual they talked about holding the head in your finger tips and putting the case in, up to the neck. Once the head got hot remove the case and it would be annealed. I'll have to dig through all my OLD manuals to see if I still have this one. If i do I'll post more info. it may take a while but by using the lead pot and finger tips you will never get the head of the case too hot.
JimmyCP
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't give up on them that easy. Brass is hardened by getting to a dull red color cooled slowly then worked with a press or a hammer. Basically what happens when you fire it and then resize.
I would load up some light loads and fire them a couple times let them all get hard again. Unless you totally burned the alloy elements out I would give it a try.
I've got some lapua and go west trading brass for the 338 lapua that was what I considered was over cooked from the factory. I Neck sized only 3 times after fire forming with light loads then anealed. All shot consistent and still do.
Just my 2 cents.
I would load up some light loads and fire them a couple times let them all get hard again. Unless you totally burned the alloy elements out I would give it a try.
I've got some lapua and go west trading brass for the 338 lapua that was what I considered was over cooked from the factory. I Neck sized only 3 times after fire forming with light loads then anealed. All shot consistent and still do.
Just my 2 cents.
BoatTail
Well-Known Member
It is my understanding, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread, that when you over anneal what happens is some of the material in the neck and shoulder area is burned off resulting in the term "Dead Soft Brass". No amount of reworking will correct from that state as the material at the neck of the case is no longer whole, it is is missing some of the metallurgical metal make up of the brass case at neck and shoulder. Here is a YouTube video that demonstrates the burn off of material when we over anneal:
I had another that talked more over annealing and the resultant "Dead Soft Brass" (Brass that is no longer useable) but can't find it at the moment. Depending on the system we use the dwell time in the flame will vary before it is over annealed. This person is using a dual flame commercial annealer so his dwell time is short. My expectation is the single flame, Drill and socket method will be longer but as several have suggested I will be using Tempilaq to figure dwell time in whatever method I used.
I had another that talked more over annealing and the resultant "Dead Soft Brass" (Brass that is no longer useable) but can't find it at the moment. Depending on the system we use the dwell time in the flame will vary before it is over annealed. This person is using a dual flame commercial annealer so his dwell time is short. My expectation is the single flame, Drill and socket method will be longer but as several have suggested I will be using Tempilaq to figure dwell time in whatever method I used.
JimmyCP
Well-Known Member
There are many types of brass used today. Yes if you burn up the element of the alloy it can go dead soft. That is when most of the zinc gets burned out and sometimes tin when it is part of the alloy.
Brass does not take much to temper and I'd doesn't take much to harden. Most brass that I use in the forge is tooling brass.
Case brass has very little tin and more zinc. So the zinc burning off is the key. Zinc melts off around 787 degree f. Which may happen a little at the mouth of the neck if the brass is brought up that high but being an alloy and binded it takes more heat to burn it all out.
Cartridge brass is approximately 30%zinc. So if you actually start burning it, you get a green color in the flame just like galvanized. I know I've done it in the forge melting down spent brass.
Burnt out brass in a case is so soft I can crush it pretty easy.
If your not sure about safety of firing a light load, turn out the lights and heat a couple cases up to a dull red color and let them cool down slowly. Resize the entire case and size to .003 neck tension.
Pretty easy to see if you can pull them easy or they have tension. Should notice the difference when you seat them.
I don't heat mine till they glow. I heat till they blue down the neck and the blue hits the should then quench. Yes quenching is not needed but I have found over the years with cases and forging brass that the bluing gets the heat to where I need it and the quench keeps the cool down consistent.
If you read any metellurgy books on brass, you will understand how brass is actuallyheat treated and temper. It's almost the complete opposite of high carbon steel.
Brass does not take much to temper and I'd doesn't take much to harden. Most brass that I use in the forge is tooling brass.
Case brass has very little tin and more zinc. So the zinc burning off is the key. Zinc melts off around 787 degree f. Which may happen a little at the mouth of the neck if the brass is brought up that high but being an alloy and binded it takes more heat to burn it all out.
Cartridge brass is approximately 30%zinc. So if you actually start burning it, you get a green color in the flame just like galvanized. I know I've done it in the forge melting down spent brass.
Burnt out brass in a case is so soft I can crush it pretty easy.
If your not sure about safety of firing a light load, turn out the lights and heat a couple cases up to a dull red color and let them cool down slowly. Resize the entire case and size to .003 neck tension.
Pretty easy to see if you can pull them easy or they have tension. Should notice the difference when you seat them.
I don't heat mine till they glow. I heat till they blue down the neck and the blue hits the should then quench. Yes quenching is not needed but I have found over the years with cases and forging brass that the bluing gets the heat to where I need it and the quench keeps the cool down consistent.
If you read any metellurgy books on brass, you will understand how brass is actuallyheat treated and temper. It's almost the complete opposite of high carbon steel.
