Case head expansion (CHE), reloader's signs of pressure

Alibiiv

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I recently read an article about that described measuring case head expansion (thick section of the case just in front of the base of the case) to be a reloader's way to "measure" chamber pressures. The article then proceeds to state that the principle behind this to be that if there is "X" amount of expansion it means that there is "Y" pounds per square inch.

The article further states that without a "standard" such as measuring a factory case of the same caliber before and after firing, CHE really cannot be determined. And another postulate tries to determine whether the CHE should be conducted on once-fired cases or new cases.

I find CHE interesting because I have a wildcat that I am trying to develop loads for, .270 Ackley Improved, and cannot even find load data (minimal at best) for this cartridge and would like some form of standard while finding a load for the cartridge without going over safe limits.

What are other's thoughts, ideas and/or experiences with this process/concept?
 
Measuring the fired case just above the extractor groove doesn't tell you the chamber pressure. All it tells you is how hard the brass is in the base of the case and how the chamber pressure effects the brass.

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...r-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/

Below the Remington brass will expand more in the base than the Lake City brass at the same chamber pressure.

brasstest03.png


Also the thickness of the flash hole web will effect the amount of base expansion, and why they say Federal brass is soft.

cYeTsDp.jpg


Bottom line, measuring the base diameter tells you is the strength and elastic limits of the brand of case you are using and how much pressure it can take.

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I use that measurement to help check different brands of brass and a sign of pressure. it don't mean that it is X or Y for pressure it helps to know when your exceeding that brasses limit of pressure
 
Thank you for the replies, really appreciated. The article that I referenced is in the November/1019 Shooting Times magazine, titled " Rifle Reloading, Myths and Maybes" .
I do understand the concept that both biged51 and cancan10 have pointed out. This is something that I have noticed in brass, however never really thought that much about it, until now. I get what you have written and what I read about in the Hodgdon article. The author, John Barsness, had a photo in the article showing that he is measuring the outside of the case, about 3/16th to 1/4 inch above the base of the case. I could be mistaken here, but I think that we are talking about two different measurements, to determine two different issues with brass. I never realized the relationship between how soft or hard brass and expansion; makes sense to me.
 
Thank you for the replies, really appreciated. The article that I referenced is in the November/1019 Shooting Times magazine, titled " Rifle Reloading, Myths and Maybes" .
I do understand the concept that both biged51 and cancan10 have pointed out. This is something that I have noticed in brass, however never really thought that much about it, until now. I get what you have written and what I read about in the Hodgdon article. The author, John Barsness, had a photo in the article showing that he is measuring the outside of the case, about 3/16th to 1/4 inch above the base of the case. I could be mistaken here, but I think that we are talking about two different measurements, to determine two different issues with brass. I never realized the relationship between how soft or hard brass and expansion; makes sense to me.

I haven't read article you post. If you want little more on pressure Hornady manual #10 page 22 and 23 deal with miking outside of the case and show pictures on it. All the old manuals I have from Hornady have it. No mention of miking case for case life.

I don't want to get into debate about it.
 
It can be used as an indicator of excess pressure, however, the variables related have to be controlled with certainty. I used this method for a while and finally abandoned it as it wasn't giving me the information I was looking for until after I got back from the range.
You won't be able to extrapolate between brand A and B brass, or even different lots, until you know the elastic limitations of each.
The problem I have found with this methodology is that it requires you to shoot loads that are quite certainly too heavy, so you can check to see if you've exceeded the elastic limitation of that lot of brass.
The manufacturers ability, or desire to control QC variables among the particular lot HEAVILY influences your results. This is where I threw in the towel on this method. I had a load that I worked up in ten pieces of X brass. I labeled each case 1-10, shot a seating test and measured each case. Then shot a ladder test and measured each case. I then loaded all ten of those cases with the same load, fired them and measured the cases. I thought everything should be good to go, as I've fired, loaded and measured these ten cases three times. When I loaded the other 90 cases with the same load that was 'safe' in the previous sessions I found out the hard way that I wasn't. The next session at the range, with three of my respected friends there, I fired two rounds and the third round lost the fired primer into the action of my rifle jamming the bolt and ending my day at the range. I took the whole mess home and cut the failed case apart to see why. The failed case was 0.009" thinner at the web the other fired case I cut apart. I then cut three more cases and found a total difference of 0.011". I called X and their customer support basically said not our problem, they were within their manufacturing QC controls.
Also without a chamber casting you don't know a thing other than the diameter of the brass at the time you measured it
 
I watch brass wipe on the bolt face (and stiff extraction) and an indicator of an over pressure situation and back down a bit when experiencing brass wipe (and / or apply a bit more shoulder bump).
 
I recently read an article about that described measuring case head expansion (thick section of the case just in front of the base of the case) to be a reloader's way to "measure" chamber pressures. The article then proceeds to state that the principle behind this to be that if there is "X" amount of expansion it means that there is "Y" pounds per square inch.

The article further states that without a "standard" such as measuring a factory case of the same caliber before and after firing, CHE really cannot be determined. And another postulate tries to determine whether the CHE should be conducted on once-fired cases or new cases.

I find CHE interesting because I have a wildcat that I am trying to develop loads for, .270 Ackley Improved, and cannot even find load data (minimal at best) for this cartridge and would like some form of standard while finding a load for the cartridge without going over safe limits.

What are other's thoughts, ideas and/or experiences with this process/concept?

With my 338 EDGE loaded hot: when the case head will no longer slide into the shell holder on my reloading press, I lay them aside, that is about the primers get loose. After about five uses of the brass. The cases still look fine but the primers fall out or can be easily pushed out (I do that by hand with a decaying die), I throw them away. Too bad there is no way to reform the head.
 
Another ting to keep in mind is that all brass isn't created 'equal'. You use cheap brass (Winchester, Hornady or range brass) expect issues. I only use Lapua or Norma brass for rifle loads and Starline for handgun loads. Always better to start with quality components.
 
I've been mulling this over as of late. I am getting ready to start load testing in an improved 338 Lapua Mag that is a single-shot Nesika action with no ejector. It has a solid bolt face with no ejector hole or slot. I won't be able to watch for ejector marks for pressure signs. Only primer flattening (not always reliable), case head expansion (fine for case life estimations), and heavy bolt lift (maybe my best option). I'll be looking for the accuracy node with the highest velocity, otherwise what is the point of the improved chamber :)
In my case I think I am going to have to rely upon the combination of bolt lift and primer deformation, along with existing load data. Case head expansion seems to have too many variables to be reliable.
 
Case head expansion is a valuable piece of info for me. I record before, which is a must do otherwise it is a wasted effort, and I measure again after.
 
I recently read an article about that described measuring case head expansion (thick section of the case just in front of the base of the case) to be a reloader's way to "measure" chamber pressures. The article then proceeds to state that the principle behind this to be that if there is "X" amount of expansion it means that there is "Y" pounds per square inch.

The article further states that without a "standard" such as measuring a factory case of the same caliber before and after firing, CHE really cannot be determined. And another postulate tries to determine whether the CHE should be conducted on once-fired cases or new cases.

I find CHE interesting because I have a wildcat that I am trying to develop loads for, .270 Ackley Improved, and cannot even find load data (minimal at best) for this cartridge and would like some form of standard while finding a load for the cartridge without going over safe limits.

What are other's thoughts, ideas and/or experiences with this process/concept?


I have been doing this for years, despite the fact that most guys poo-poo this method. One of the things that puts guys off is the fact that you can only make the correct measurements if you use a blade micrometer, since the diameter of the cartridge rim is greater than the diameter where you want to measure on the case head. The walls of the cartridge will also be of a slightly larger diameter after firing, just ahead of the web where we want to make the measurement, so a regular micrometer will be measuring the larger diameters, rather than the diameter of the case head itself.

I C-clamp my blade micrometer to a flat steel plate, and stand the cartridge case on a flat steel washer that elevates it just enough above the steel plate so that the blades of the micrometer are getting down into the area just above the extractor groove for an accurate measurement. This is the only way I have found to make the measurement at the same height every time. It has to be repeatable, or the measurement will be worthless to you.

I also make a mark on the side of the case to identify the spot where I made the measurement, so that I can measure at exactly the same spot after it has been shot. Cartridge cases aren't often perfectly round, so this is necessary to do. I measure all the cases in my test series, and mark the diameters on the side of the case. It is necessary to measure to .0001", since we're looking for that amount of expansion. It is also necessary to use new brass, which has not yet been work-hardened, or our measurements will be worthless. I check for expansion right after firing, and write the number on the case, right next tot the unfired diameter number.

What I'm looking for is expansion at the solid web of no more than .0005". That is my absolute maximum, and for loads to be used in field conditions, I go no higher than.0003" of expansion. I have found that almost all the factory loads I have shot expand around .0003", so I know that I won't have an over-pressure problem at this level.

There is a fair amount of data out there about this, and I have a reloading manual written by a guy from Australia named Nick Harvey that has an entire chapter on this. What he does is to file down the rim of the cartridge case, which enables him to use a regular micrometer to take his measurements right ahead of the extractor groove, without any interference from the rim. I tried this, and it was rather tedious, but it would save a guy a couple hundred dollars on buying a new tool. It also ruins the cartridge case for further use, but sacrificing a half dozen or so cases to save the cost of a blade micrometer might be OK with you. If you're going to try several different powders & bullets, you might just want to buy the correct tool and save the cases. In any case, the title of the book is NICK HARVEY'S PRACTICAL RELOADING MANUAL, and it is a very good read. My copy is dated 1993, and I don't know if it's still in print.

Another guy who has worked with this method is Dave Scovill, who writes in Rifle Magazine and Handloader Magazine. He did an article many years ago about this, and had his loads pressure tested in some bullet company's lab. He listed the measured pressures next to his case head expansion figures. In most cases, .0005" of case head expansion coincided with 60,000 psi. ( This is why I use .0005" as my absolute maximum.) I can't remember what the old Hornady manual said about this, but it seems to me that this number was in the ball park, as it is in the Hodgdon manual.

There's another way of doing this, and Ken Waters was the guy who wrote it up many times. He measures at the point where the case walls expand, just ahead of the web. ( He calls this the "pressure ring.") This is a entirely different measurement, and he found it to be reliable for determining maximum safe loads. I have tried it, but prefer to measure on the web rather than ahead of the web, since the chamber diameter is a player in how much the walls will expand. Measured back by the extractor groove on the web seems to be a more like the concept of measuring a copper crusher, like they used to do in ballistics labs years ago.

Lastly, I'd like to say this : It's important to remember here that what we're talking about is not a measurement of pressure - it's a measure of relative pressure. I've been using it to approximate factory load pressures, and for that it has been pretty reliable. If you want to go beyond that pressure level, this may or may not be useful to you. With Ackley Improved cartridge designs, the straighter case walls are said to grip the chamber walls better than the tapered un-improved cases do, possibly decreasing bolt thrust. This would mean that using this method may be less useful with those designs. I have used it with the 30-06 Ackley, and found that it worked just fine for me. The only problem is that there is no factory loaded cartridges to use as a control, but loading to .0003" case head expansion with a new ( un-fireformed ) 30-06 case posed no problems. My velocities were right where I had thought they would be, and I used the loads extensively for many years with no problems. Hope this is all helpful for you - best of luck to you in your endeavors.
 
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