can someone explain the differences between 3, 4 5, and 6 groove rifling

[revturbo9967]

what are the pros, cons, or uses for the different number of rifling grooves? i see lilja likes the 3 groove. others like 5. is this a personal preference or is there more science to it?

thanks

 

[rcoody]

what are the pros, cons, or uses for the different number of rifling grooves? i see lilja likes the 3 groove. others like 5. is this a personal preference or is there more science to it?

thanks

might as well throw canted lands and button/cut rifling into the mix.

Lots of theories here.

a quality barrel will shoot good no matter which method used to rifle it.

might be some minor differences in fouling or velocities but I think a quality job and lots of lapping is what really makes the difference.

Must say I prefer cut rifling. !f you look what is used in competition for some reason cut rifling is more common.

Best Rifle Barrel - What The Pros Use 2013 - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

 

[revturbo9967]

i guess one question i had was geared toward pressure and velocity. i have read the 3 groove will produce less velocity then a 5 groove. is there any truth to this or is that splitting hairs ?

 

[rcoody]

i guess one question i had was geared toward pressure and velocity. i have read the 3 groove will produce less velocity then a 5 groove. is there any truth to this or is that splitting hairs ?

every barrel is unique! you have to find what it likes.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ad-varies-in-velocity-with-different-barrels/

 

[FEENIX]

I have 1:8" 3-groove Lilja barrel on my .270 AI. I can't speak for it's velocity gain or loss but I am very pleased with it's accuracy (which I will take any time over velocity ) and it hardly fouls (barrel stays very clean after numerous shots and is very easy to clean). Got this article though for what it is worth ...

What Is the Best Number of Grooves? Barrel-makers report that, as long as the ratio of lands to grooves is relatively constant, there is no demonstrable difference in accuracy among 3-,4-,5-,6- and 8-groove barrel designs. Krieger has told us "There isn't any advantage to the shooter. Assuming the ratio of the surface area is kept the same, the number of grooves should not have any effect. Barrel makers use different numbers of grooves for ease of manufacturing and ... marketing hype." That said, in our experience, 8-groove barrels are a little slower, and may foul a bit more quickly because there are more edges to cut into the bullet's jacket and to trap powder residue. We see no reason not to specify a 4-groove barrel if that is your preference. Moreover, IBS Hunter Champion Al Nyhus and others have had great success with Lilja 3-groove barrels. Al believes the 3-groove design cleans up more quickly and yields a bit more velocity. Famed gunsmith and wildcatter P.O. Ackley believed that, all things considered, a properly-made 3-groove barrel is optimal for most common calibers. Ackley believed 3-groove profiles can deliver higher velocities with less fouling and no significant reduction in accuracy. In the months ahead, 6mmBR.com plans to do a comparison test of various barrel formats.

(Barrel FAQ -- Barrel Velocities, Lengths, Twist Rate, Contours, Cleaning, Accuracy and Ballistics for Benchrest, Hunting, Precision Shooting)

I just placed another order for a Lilja 1:9" 3-groove .308 cal for my upcoming project.

 

[el matador]

I researched this a little before ordering my 3-groove .270 barrel. If you're shooting light, thin-jacketed bullets at high velocity you can run into problems using a 3-groove. Apparently when you're pushing a bullet to it's limits you want a few more gripping edges to bring it up to high RPM. Most of us are running heavy bullets around here so that's not an issue. The 3-grooves are supposed to clean up easier and give slightly more velocity. Whether or not that's true I can't tell you, but my 3-groove is very accurate and cleans up easily.

 

[revturbo9967]

thanks for the info guys

 

[rcoody]

I have 1:8" 3-groove Lilja barrel on my .270 AI. I can't speak for it's velocity gain or loss but I am very pleased with it's accuracy (which I will take any time over velocity ) and it hardly fouls (barrel stays very clean after numerous shots and is very easy to clean). Got this article though for what it is worth ...

(Barrel FAQ -- Barrel Velocities, Lengths, Twist Rate, Contours, Cleaning, Accuracy and Ballistics for Benchrest, Hunting, Precision Shooting)

I just placed another order for a Lilja 1:9" 3-groove .308 cal for my upcoming project.

well Lilja makes a very good barrel

but if the three groove barrels were that much better then all the top barrel makers would be using them.

It is whatever floats your boat.

I feel the quality of the barrel makes much more difference than what kind of rifling it has.

Every barrel is different.

 

[FEENIX]

well Lilja makes a very good barrel

but if the three groove barrels were that much better then all the top barrel makers would be using them.

It is whatever floats your boat.

I feel the quality of the barrel makes much more difference than what kind of rifling it has.

Every barrel is different.

I NEVER claimed to be an expert nor 3-groove barrels are that much better, that is why provided an extract from more knowledgeable people/organization than I am in #5.

There's NO argument from me that every barrel is different and quality of barrel is more important than the groove configuration. I went with Lilja barrels for both reason to try. As noted, I am very pleased with the results, I placed another barrel for my upcoming project. Pac-Nor makes 3-grooves too but I went with Lilja instead.

As far as why not all top barrel manufacturer's make 3-groove barrels, I don't know, perhaps you could ask them instead ... I am just happy and thankful I have plenty of choices.

Not really sure what you're implying on your "It is whatever floats your boat." comment. Sounds like I hit a nerve or something, which was never my intent, as I simply shared my real world experience to the OP ... nothing more nothing less. lightbulb

Cheers!

 

[revturbo9967]

i have read the 3 groove rifling is a bit hard to manufacture to to the cutting width being twice as wide. this may be why not everyone manufactures 3 groove barrels

 

[FEENIX]

i have read the 3 groove rifling is a bit hard to manufacture to to the cutting width being twice as wide. this may be why not everyone manufactures 3 groove barrels

I read the same thing, but it's also associated with faster twist and with bullets that have softer jackets.

IIRC, there was a thread that addresses this same issue. Most of us that uses, 3-groove and faster twist, uses heavier bullets and with thicker jackets that can withstand it.

Like advancement in barrels, the bullets came a long ways too.

ADDED: Found and old thread >>> http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/3-groove-barrels-32906/

Did a quick query on who makes 3-groove barrels via their website and thus far I got Lilja, Pac-Nor, Benchmark.

Bartlein charges any barrel groove not listed for $100.

Most sites says contact them for special/custom request.

 

[C.O. Shooter]

I was inquiring about the same with different grooved barrels. Especially the differences between a 5R and 6 groove barrel for a .338.

I read a post by "Frank" of Bartlien Barrels. He indicated no real advantage between 5/6 groove.

Found it: Twist rate and groove number ? - SnipersHide.com Forums - Scout

The number of grooves for the most part doesn't mean #$%# when it comes to accuracy and or barrel life. Anybody telling you differently is either selling something or doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only exception I will make is in regards to 6mm bullets. If your building a 6ppc benchrest type rifle and your only going be shooting 70gr. and lighter bullets.....those light weight bullets don't like the 5R style rifling. Why? Because of the short bearing surface on the jackets. The rifling/lands do the driving on the bullet and I feel the 5R doesn't bite those short jacket bullets good enough. Those short jacket bullets and the 5R rifling will shoot upper .2xx's to a flat .3xx but nothing better that that and on a short range bench gun that won't win you any matches. So for those bullets I tell guys go with conventional rifling. This is where the lands meet the grooves at basically a 90 degree corner. I don't care if it's a 4 groove, conventional 5 groove, 6 groove, 8 groove etc...I've got a conventional 5 groove on my 6ppc gun. It will agg in the mid .1xx's at a 100 yards. Has shot groups in the .0xx's as well.

Now staying with 6mm and going to and if your shooting long heavy bullets like the 105gr. etc...then I go with the 5R. The odd number of grooves/lands don't directly oppose one another and in conjunction with the angles on the sides of the lands I feel the rifling will not distort/upset the bullet jacket as much and there fore helps fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter.

I've shot barrels in everything from 2 groove up to 8 groove in calibers from .22rf up to .338 and I don't see a difference in accuracy other than the example I listed above with the 6mm's.

We've made accuracy test barrels for ammo makers, bullet makers and the gov't arsenals in .308win. with 4 groove and 5R. Also for .300wm in 4 groove, 6 groove and 5R rifling and .338 Lapua in 6 groove and 5R and all testing has shown no difference in real world accuracy.

Hope this helps!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[revturbo9967]

good info. thanks

 

[FEENIX]

I was inquiring about the same with different grooved barrels. Especially the differences between a 5R and 6 groove barrel for a .338.

I read a post by "Frank" of Bartlien Barrels. He indicated no real advantage between 5/6 groove.

Found it: Twist rate and groove number ? - SnipersHide.com Forums - Scout

The number of grooves for the most part doesn't mean #$%# when it comes to accuracy and or barrel life. Anybody telling you differently is either selling something or doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only exception I will make is in regards to 6mm bullets. If your building a 6ppc benchrest type rifle and your only going be shooting 70gr. and lighter bullets.....those light weight bullets don't like the 5R style rifling. Why? Because of the short bearing surface on the jackets. The rifling/lands do the driving on the bullet and I feel the 5R doesn't bite those short jacket bullets good enough. Those short jacket bullets and the 5R rifling will shoot upper .2xx's to a flat .3xx but nothing better that that and on a short range bench gun that won't win you any matches. So for those bullets I tell guys go with conventional rifling. This is where the lands meet the grooves at basically a 90 degree corner. I don't care if it's a 4 groove, conventional 5 groove, 6 groove, 8 groove etc...I've got a conventional 5 groove on my 6ppc gun. It will agg in the mid .1xx's at a 100 yards. Has shot groups in the .0xx's as well.

Now staying with 6mm and going to and if your shooting long heavy bullets like the 105gr. etc...then I go with the 5R. The odd number of grooves/lands don't directly oppose one another and in conjunction with the angles on the sides of the lands I feel the rifling will not distort/upset the bullet jacket as much and there fore helps fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter.

I've shot barrels in everything from 2 groove up to 8 groove in calibers from .22rf up to .338 and I don't see a difference in accuracy other than the example I listed above with the 6mm's.

We've made accuracy test barrels for ammo makers, bullet makers and the gov't arsenals in .308win. with 4 groove and 5R. Also for .300wm in 4 groove, 6 groove and 5R rifling and .338 Lapua in 6 groove and 5R and all testing has shown no difference in real world accuracy.

Hope this helps!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

He's not here with us anymore to prove otherwise, but I'd like to think Ackley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.O._Ackley) as well as Al Nyhus (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/home-built-bullets-a-success-story-from-al-nyhus/) knows a thing or two about it.