I've been reloading for about a year now and am told I need to use bushing dies for a more precise load and I am all about that but I really need someone to explain the benefit over expander ball and I need it explained like you were explaining it to a child. I'm having a difficult time gaining understanding. I am looking at either Whidden dies or Redding type S bushing dies. Educate me please. I understand neck tension somewhat but don't quite get the bushing concept. Thanks in advance.
Bushing Dies for a Newbie
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cahunter805
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The bushings can be bought in .001 increments which lets you control the size of your neck. A standard die may be sizing your neck way too much or not enough. Have you measured the neck diameter of a fired case and also a loaded case?
bigedp51
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Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers that reduce the neck diameter less than .004.
With a standard off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber your case necks will expand more than .005.
When you use a bushing die and reduce the neck diameter .005 or more you will induce neck runout. At the Whidden custom die website they even tell you that they get less neck runout with their standard non-bushing dies. If when using a bushing die it is recommended to size the neck in two steps if the case neck is to be reduced .005 or more.
Too much of what benchrest shooters do filters down to us with standard off the shelf factory rifles and it is not needed and even a waste of time. The bushing floats inside the die and can move from side to side and even tilt.
In my opinion the average reloader is better off full length resizing with Forster benchrest dies and "IF NEEDED" have the neck of the honed.
FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/
With a standard off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber your case necks will expand more than .005.
When you use a bushing die and reduce the neck diameter .005 or more you will induce neck runout. At the Whidden custom die website they even tell you that they get less neck runout with their standard non-bushing dies. If when using a bushing die it is recommended to size the neck in two steps if the case neck is to be reduced .005 or more.
Too much of what benchrest shooters do filters down to us with standard off the shelf factory rifles and it is not needed and even a waste of time. The bushing floats inside the die and can move from side to side and even tilt.
In my opinion the average reloader is better off full length resizing with Forster benchrest dies and "IF NEEDED" have the neck of the honed.
FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/
Cahunter, I measured fired case vs loaded....004" difference. I do understand the neck tension thing, to a degree. I've had pretty good accuracy with standard dies and neck turning but how does neck thickness have anything at all to do with tension using a standard die? Don't get it.
bigedp51
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The thicker the case neck the smaller the inside diameter will be when it is sized before the expander passes through the neck. Then when the expander passes through the neck the thicker neck will have more spring back.
You say you had .004" difference, BUT if you remove the expander, and size the case how much smaller is the neck before expanding. If its .005 or more you may induce runout during sizing with a bushing die.
Below is my Redding neck thickness gauge and it tells me more about the quality of the brass than anything else.
In the gauge below is a Remington .223 case with .004 neck thickness variation between .010 and .014. Normally .223/5.56 cases have a neck thickness betwen .011 and .012 and you want cases with much better uniformity. Cases like this are not worth doing any prep work to and are used as blasting ammo in my AR5 rifles.
Bottom line, you need good brass before even thinking of using bushing dies and neck turning. And there is nothing wrong with just using a standard full length die.
I have bushing dies but get much lower neck runout using Forster full length dies with their high mounted expander that greatly reduces neck runout.
Below is a RCBS full length die that I equipped with a Forster expander and spindle assembly. And this setup produces far less runout than a bushing die does.
You say you had .004" difference, BUT if you remove the expander, and size the case how much smaller is the neck before expanding. If its .005 or more you may induce runout during sizing with a bushing die.
Below is my Redding neck thickness gauge and it tells me more about the quality of the brass than anything else.
In the gauge below is a Remington .223 case with .004 neck thickness variation between .010 and .014. Normally .223/5.56 cases have a neck thickness betwen .011 and .012 and you want cases with much better uniformity. Cases like this are not worth doing any prep work to and are used as blasting ammo in my AR5 rifles.
Bottom line, you need good brass before even thinking of using bushing dies and neck turning. And there is nothing wrong with just using a standard full length die.
I have bushing dies but get much lower neck runout using Forster full length dies with their high mounted expander that greatly reduces neck runout.
Below is a RCBS full length die that I equipped with a Forster expander and spindle assembly. And this setup produces far less runout than a bushing die does.
The thicker the case neck the smaller the inside diameter will be when it is sized before the expander passes through the neck. Then when the expander passes through the neck the thicker neck will have more spring back.
You say you had .004" difference, BUT if you remove the expander, and size the case how much smaller is the neck before expanding. If its .005 or more you may induce runout during sizing with a bushing die.
Below is my Redding neck thickness gauge and it tells me more about the quality of the brass than anything else.
In the gauge below is a Remington .223 case with .004 neck thickness variation between .010 and .014. Normally .223/5.56 cases have a neck thickness betwen .011 and .012 and you want cases with much better uniformity. Cases like this are not worth doing any prep work to and are used as blasting ammo in my AR5 rifles.
Bottom line, you need good brass before even thinking of using bushing dies and neck turning. And there is nothing wrong with just using a standard full length die.
I have bushing dies but get much lower neck runout using Forster full length dies with their high mounted expander that greatly reduces neck runout.
Below is a RCBS full length die that I equipped with a Forster expander and spindle assembly. And this setup produces far less runout than a bushing die does.
Ok, in the case of the .223 brass and it's lack of uniformity, wouldn't that be the perfect candidate for neck turning? The way you explained that I was able to grasp it a little better but don't fully understand it...I need to take a bushing die apart and look at it.
bigedp51
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You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, and this is why so many competitive shooters buy Lapua brass.
Look at the illustration below and remember the entire length of this case is thicker on one side. And when you turn the neck the case is still out of alignment with the axis of the bore.
Many people say using a bushing die works the brass much less, BUT last night I was reading that the most stress is placed on the case neck on firing. Meaning expanding to the chamber neck dimensions works the brass more than anything else. And sizing and expanding the case neck has much less effect on work hardening the brass.
Sorry but I forgot to bookmark the webpage and only downloaded the article but it was: CHARACTERISATION STUDY OF BRASS CARTRIDGES FOR HIGH END COMPETITION TARGET SHOOTING by RYAN STEVENSON.
Also at the Whidden custom die website they sell five expander sets starting at bullet diameter to .005 smaller. So there are several ways to control neck tension besides bushing dies.
So again, bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers and most SAAMI chambers do not fall into that category. I would rather buy a Forster die and have the neck honed for a off the shelf factory rifle than use a bushing die.
Look at the illustration below and remember the entire length of this case is thicker on one side. And when you turn the neck the case is still out of alignment with the axis of the bore.
Many people say using a bushing die works the brass much less, BUT last night I was reading that the most stress is placed on the case neck on firing. Meaning expanding to the chamber neck dimensions works the brass more than anything else. And sizing and expanding the case neck has much less effect on work hardening the brass.
Sorry but I forgot to bookmark the webpage and only downloaded the article but it was: CHARACTERISATION STUDY OF BRASS CARTRIDGES FOR HIGH END COMPETITION TARGET SHOOTING by RYAN STEVENSON.
Also at the Whidden custom die website they sell five expander sets starting at bullet diameter to .005 smaller. So there are several ways to control neck tension besides bushing dies.
So again, bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers and most SAAMI chambers do not fall into that category. I would rather buy a Forster die and have the neck honed for a off the shelf factory rifle than use a bushing die.
FearNoWind
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OK, Spector. Let's take it from the top.
The point you made "explain the benefit over expander ball" leads me to wonder if you're a bit confused on the neck size/neck tension variables.
Your neck inside diameter = internal dimensions of the neck; determined by either the expander ball or the neck sizing mandrel.
Your neck outside diameter = exterior dimension of the neck; determined by the neck sizing portion of your full length die or bushing die.
Obviously, each affects the other. I bump the shoulder back, size my necks with the bushing die, then expand them with a neck expander mandrel die to ensure they're as perfectly round as I can get them.
I'd recommend finding a nice warm place for the expander ball or donate it to charity and develop a practice of using a neck expander mandrel die.
Click Here:
http://www.accurateshooter.com
Enter 05-3000 in the search box. You'll get some good info on the subject. The old catalog number was 05-3000 without the neck turning apparatus but I don't see that it's still available as an individual set.
A call to sinclair will get you the info you need if you want to go that way. Just tell 'em the old catalogue number.Don't let the image of the press confuse you. I don't know why they display it that way ... but the die comes without the press and mandrels are available in a wide range of sizes. I sometimes make my own on the lathe but it's not necessary to go that far.Your full length resizing die reshapes the neck, shoulder and body of the case. Kinda squeezes everything back to its former shape. When you run the case up into the die the expander ball enters the neck (without a lot of resistance; if any) before the neck reaches the top of the resizing stroke. The die squeezes the neck and body to fit your chamber and then, as the casing is withdrawn, the sizing ball opens the neck up to accommodate the bullet that is later seated. Expander balls are notorious for sizing necks out of round to some extent so they're not the best tool to use. If you get rid of the expander ball and add another step to the resizing process, using an expander die with a properly sized mandrel, you'll get straighter necks.
The bushing die provides better control over the overall outside diameter of your case necks. For example, if you only need to reduce their overall outside diameter by .002 in order to obtain the optimum neck tension and your FL die is squeezing it by .003 you can rely on the proper size busying die to take the dimension to where you want it and no further. Those numbers are for example only, of course. But you know what your reloading bench requirements are so use the data you have.
If the difference between a fired and unfired case in your rifle is .004 there's not much you can do to improve that. .004, IMO, means you're getting a lot of work hardening on the necks of your brass with every resizing but you've got to make the neck small enough to hold the bullet so there's not much you can do about it. You can reduce the work hardening by resizing the necks just enough to apply about .001 neck tension when the bullet is seated and wait 'till next time to get a chamber that's a bit tighter in tolerances. If your fired/unfired ratio is .004 I'd expect you to be able to drop a bullet into the fired case without resistance.
The point you made "explain the benefit over expander ball" leads me to wonder if you're a bit confused on the neck size/neck tension variables.
Your neck inside diameter = internal dimensions of the neck; determined by either the expander ball or the neck sizing mandrel.
Your neck outside diameter = exterior dimension of the neck; determined by the neck sizing portion of your full length die or bushing die.
Obviously, each affects the other. I bump the shoulder back, size my necks with the bushing die, then expand them with a neck expander mandrel die to ensure they're as perfectly round as I can get them.
I'd recommend finding a nice warm place for the expander ball or donate it to charity and develop a practice of using a neck expander mandrel die.
Click Here:
http://www.accurateshooter.com
Enter 05-3000 in the search box. You'll get some good info on the subject. The old catalog number was 05-3000 without the neck turning apparatus but I don't see that it's still available as an individual set.
A call to sinclair will get you the info you need if you want to go that way. Just tell 'em the old catalogue number.Don't let the image of the press confuse you. I don't know why they display it that way ... but the die comes without the press and mandrels are available in a wide range of sizes. I sometimes make my own on the lathe but it's not necessary to go that far.Your full length resizing die reshapes the neck, shoulder and body of the case. Kinda squeezes everything back to its former shape. When you run the case up into the die the expander ball enters the neck (without a lot of resistance; if any) before the neck reaches the top of the resizing stroke. The die squeezes the neck and body to fit your chamber and then, as the casing is withdrawn, the sizing ball opens the neck up to accommodate the bullet that is later seated. Expander balls are notorious for sizing necks out of round to some extent so they're not the best tool to use. If you get rid of the expander ball and add another step to the resizing process, using an expander die with a properly sized mandrel, you'll get straighter necks.
The bushing die provides better control over the overall outside diameter of your case necks. For example, if you only need to reduce their overall outside diameter by .002 in order to obtain the optimum neck tension and your FL die is squeezing it by .003 you can rely on the proper size busying die to take the dimension to where you want it and no further. Those numbers are for example only, of course. But you know what your reloading bench requirements are so use the data you have.
If the difference between a fired and unfired case in your rifle is .004 there's not much you can do to improve that. .004, IMO, means you're getting a lot of work hardening on the necks of your brass with every resizing but you've got to make the neck small enough to hold the bullet so there's not much you can do about it. You can reduce the work hardening by resizing the necks just enough to apply about .001 neck tension when the bullet is seated and wait 'till next time to get a chamber that's a bit tighter in tolerances. If your fired/unfired ratio is .004 I'd expect you to be able to drop a bullet into the fired case without resistance.
bigedp51
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A Forster die with a high mounted expander can not pull your necks off center. The case neck is centered and held by the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. The spindle assembly floats and self centers with the aid of the rubber washer (W-10) And a standard low mounted expander can be lock down off center thus pulling the case necks off center.
The above Forster die will give me less runout than my bushing dies will. On top of this it is a one step process and not sizing in one operation and expanding in another.
I have two types of expander dies and the Sinclair offers two expanders for each caliber. A neck turning expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and the standard expander .002 smaller than bullet diameter.
And a Lyman type M die can also be used to expand the necks and also pushed "slightly" on to the second step to aid in bullet seating and reduce runout. But to be truthful I do not see any accuracy improvements using expander dies over just using the Forster full length die.
I'm not knocking anyone else's methods if it gives "YOU" good results. I'm just saying with the average off the shelf factory rifle little to no improvement can be seen with bushing dies, neck turning etc. and Remchester brass.
The above Forster die will give me less runout than my bushing dies will. On top of this it is a one step process and not sizing in one operation and expanding in another.
I have two types of expander dies and the Sinclair offers two expanders for each caliber. A neck turning expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and the standard expander .002 smaller than bullet diameter.
And a Lyman type M die can also be used to expand the necks and also pushed "slightly" on to the second step to aid in bullet seating and reduce runout. But to be truthful I do not see any accuracy improvements using expander dies over just using the Forster full length die.
I'm not knocking anyone else's methods if it gives "YOU" good results. I'm just saying with the average off the shelf factory rifle little to no improvement can be seen with bushing dies, neck turning etc. and Remchester brass.
Clark
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I did a controlled test for run out and case growth with 20 cases dedicated to each die and firing over and over to see a trend.
The Redding FL "S" die in 223 was the worst.
The handful of FL 223 dies were in the middle
The Lee Collet Neck die was the best.
Ironically I had been using the Redding die for years because it cost the most and looked the best.
As Charles Koch's father taught him, you really get better when you fail, get humble, learn something from it, and change your ways.
The Redding FL "S" die in 223 was the worst.
The handful of FL 223 dies were in the middle
The Lee Collet Neck die was the best.
Ironically I had been using the Redding die for years because it cost the most and looked the best.
As Charles Koch's father taught him, you really get better when you fail, get humble, learn something from it, and change your ways.
Great illustrations and explanations, thank you. My setup consists of this: Savage LRP with Hawk Hill 8 twist barrel in .243. I have just switched to Lapua brass since I got the new barrel. Everything I have heard about this brass is that I don't need to neck turn. I currently have RCBS standard FL Dies. I am wanting to eliminate the cartridge and the gun out of the equation therefore build the best round I can with my abilities. So many opinions and they are all justified. This chamber is much tighter in this barrel than the factory barrel. I want to get it right.
A Forster die with a high mounted expander can not pull your necks off center. The case neck is centered and held by the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. The spindle assembly floats and self centers with the aid of the rubber washer (W-10) And a standard low mounted expander can be lock down off center thus pulling the case necks off center.
The above Forster die will give me less runout than my bushing dies will. On top of this it is a one step process and not sizing in one operation and expanding in another.
I have two types of expander dies and the Sinclair offers two expanders for each caliber. A neck turning expander .001 smaller than bullet diameter and the standard expander .002 smaller than bullet diameter.
And a Lyman type M die can also be used to expand the necks and also pushed "slightly" on to the second step to aid in bullet seating and reduce runout. But to be truthful I do not see any accuracy improvements using expander dies over just using the Forster full length die.
I'm not knocking anyone else's methods if it gives "YOU" good results. I'm just saying with the average off the shelf factory rifle little to no improvement can be seen with bushing dies, neck turning etc. and Remchester brass.
In this illustration I noticed as the case is pulled back down out of the die for the neck sizing portion of the operation the expander moves and or changes position...how can that be if the stem is threaded into the die? What allows it to move vertically? Is something floating inside the die?
cahunter805
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Bigedp51 just curious what kind of runout are you averaging from that setup?
Ghost- .004 clearance is fine. Are you turning necks? If so what is the neck wall thickness? Another benefit of a bushing die is if you turn necks to a specific thickness you can then control how much tension is on your bullet. Some shooters run as little as .001 tension. I run .002-.003 and do test them.
Ghost- .004 clearance is fine. Are you turning necks? If so what is the neck wall thickness? Another benefit of a bushing die is if you turn necks to a specific thickness you can then control how much tension is on your bullet. Some shooters run as little as .001 tension. I run .002-.003 and do test them.
Cahunter, no I'm not turning necks on the lapua, I was on the winchester and remington. After I started doing that I got my ES down in the mid teens as opposed to 40's. I was pleased but i was informed I was doing it wrong...whatever, I got results. I understood that with lapua brass I shouldn't have to do that.
