Bullet comparator needed?

[Bigeclipse]

Hey guys. I understand how a comparator will help you measure your bullet seating off the ogive as opposed to the tip. I can see how this may be especially important on lead tipped bullets but what about polymer(plastic) tipped bullets like TTSX, accubonds, Amax...etc? Do these type bullets offer more reliable tip lengths that a comparator is really not necessary? If you already have a load shooting around 1MOA, could measuring bullet seating depth off the ogive as opposed to the tip give you much better results inside relatively short ranges like 300 yards?

One other question I have is, lets say you load a round 3.325 inches with a comparator. When you go to load your next round, will you want to back the die out just a hair...seat the bullet, measure length with comparator,...then continue seating until it is the same ogive depth as the first round? I have RCBS dies...I am not sure if they load off the ogive to begin with or if they are simply pushing the bullet in by it's tip. thanks!

 

[FearNoWind]

what about polymer(plastic) tipped bullets like TTSX, accubonds, Amax...etc? Do these type bullets offer more reliable tip lengths that a comparator is really not necessary?
Even poly tipped bullets have some inconsistencies. However, even with a comparator you can find inconsistencies - most of which usually occur from the way the caliper is used. Nevertheless, IMO you'll always have better results using a comparator because the COAL length of the loaded round has no bearing on it's performance without consideration of CBTO.
If you already have a load shooting around 1MOA, could measuring bullet seating depth off the ogive as opposed to the tip give you much better results inside relatively short ranges like 300 yards?
Once you've got it shooting inside 1MOA it's time to work on seating depth. If you already have CBTO data you could probably use COAL as a basis for comparison (you know how far your initial test loads were off the lands so adding/subtracting a few thousandths is relatively simple) but you've stil got that bullet tip error to influence the measurement so I'd stick with the CBTO.
When you go to load your next round, will you want to back the die out just a hair...seat the bullet, measure length with comparator,...then continue seating until it is the same ogive depth as the first round?
I do that if I'm loading for a match and I want +/- .0005 in CBTO. But it's time consuming and I don't bother to take that step for hunting loads.
I have RCBS dies...I am not sure if they load off the ogive to begin with or if they are simply pushing the bullet in by it's tip.
Most factory "off the shelf" dies don't include a Secant bullet seating stem. So it is possible that your dies are simply pushing on the bullet tip (or primarily closer to the tip) but if you're not getting excessive runout I wouldn't worry about it.
Take one bullet and press it into the seating stem with some degree of force that will mark the bullet (you can use that bullet later as a fouler so it won't be wasted)
Then you'll know where the seating stem is applying pressure to the bullet while seating.
I sometimes use Prussian Blue to get an accurate indicator - it eliminates the need for pressure on the bullet tip.

 

[Bigeclipse]

what about polymer(plastic) tipped bullets like TTSX, accubonds, Amax...etc? Do these type bullets offer more reliable tip lengths that a comparator is really not necessary?
Even poly tipped bullets have some inconsistencies. However, even with a comparator you can find inconsistencies - most of which usually occur from the way the caliper is used. Nevertheless, IMO you'll always have better results using a comparator because the COAL length of the loaded round has no bearing on it's performance without consideration of CBTO.
If you already have a load shooting around 1MOA, could measuring bullet seating depth off the ogive as opposed to the tip give you much better results inside relatively short ranges like 300 yards?
Once you've got it shooting inside 1MOA it's time to work on seating depth. If you already have CBTO data you could probably use COAL as a basis for comparison (you know how far your initial test loads were off the lands so adding/subtracting a few thousandths is relatively simple) but you've stil got that bullet tip error to influence the measurement so I'd stick with the CBTO.
When you go to load your next round, will you want to back the die out just a hair...seat the bullet, measure length with comparator,...then continue seating until it is the same ogive depth as the first round?
I do that if I'm loading for a match and I want +/- .0005 in CBTO. But it's time consuming and I don't bother to take that step for hunting loads.
I have RCBS dies...I am not sure if they load off the ogive to begin with or if they are simply pushing the bullet in by it's tip.
Most factory "off the shelf" dies don't include a Secant bullet seating stem. So it is possible that your dies are simply pushing on the bullet tip (or primarily closer to the tip) but if you're not getting excessive runout I wouldn't worry about it.
Take one bullet and press it into the seating stem with some degree of force that will mark the bullet (you can use that bullet later as a fouler so it won't be wasted)
Then you'll know where the seating stem is applying pressure to the bullet while seating.
I sometimes use Prussian Blue to get an accurate indicator - it eliminates the need for pressure on the bullet tip.

Well I do not meaure bullet runout yet either. Of course I eyeball it to make sure I have no HUGE issues with runout but yeah...how effective can that be haha. I guess what I am getting at is I am primarily a hunter (not target shooter). I am interested in working up accurate loads but it is not super critical to me. I want to be morally effective out to 400 yards...may extend that sometime in the distant future, BUT I also want to work loads as accurately possible while trying to stay on the cheaper side of things. I originally got into reloading because I bought a rifle that would not shoot any premium tipped ammo well. It shot corelokts alright. So I decided I would try my hand at reloading. Well needless to say i found a relatively accurate load for that using some nosler accubonds which I was excited about. I have started reloading for my pistols as well but that is PURELY for cost savings and NOT for accuracy so I am not worried about that. Well now, I am starting to want my rifle loads to become as accurate as possible within reason. Buying a comparator is not a HUGE expense but buying all new reloading dies is haha. So I was trying to figure out what should be list of priorities for things I should buy for reloading more accurate rounds.

Right now I have all the typical tools, powder trickler and powder throw, RCBS standard press, RCBS dies, calipers...etc. I start loading at an estimated .050 off the lands by using the fresh fired brass and bullet method. I know this is not the most accurate way but it seems to be doing ok for me. Just curious what should be on my list next.

 

[travelhunter]

i am not the smartest guy on here by any stretch

just to tell you one thing.
ruger mk11 30 06 factory ammo 1moa at 100
ruger mk 11 30 06 hand loads with no comparator and seat to coal max per book 1/2 to 3/4 MOA

same everything with comparator sitting 015 off the lands 1/4 minute gun at 200 NO ********
1 min at 500
bullets? all the same 180 gr accubond

i sincerely hope you invest a little time in playing with the seating depth. It literally reduced my world to astonishingly small proportions........ i hunt primarily and oh yeah all over the world.
all my reloading is now with a comparator and depth adjustments. I sincerely swear my 416 rem mag is 3/4 minute gun because of what i learned from these guys. they have taken me from mildly interested hunter to a proficient long range one shot killer.

If len would have treated me with a modicum of respect there would be 2 or 3 more guns in my beloved collection....... please heed the advice of these guys it will help

 

[scottishkat]

I concur with the advice you have received and would add until I started using CBTO (Cartridge Base To Ogive) as my standard measurement my success was basically dumb luck.

Also I have been using the comparator to measure bearing surface and sorting bullets according to that and have gotten better results in seating depth while using CBTO.

It will make some additional work but if you want tighter groups it is a good way to get them.

Good luck and shoot straight.

Bob

 

[FearNoWind]

... I start loading at an estimated .050 off the lands
Just curious what should be on my list next.

I believe the equipment you have is fine. A finicky target shooter might want a different setup but you're a hunter and 1 MOA is plenty good enough for hunting purposes. Consider that if you can hold 1 MOA with your rifle you should be able to hit an 8 inch target easily at 700 yards and that (IMO) is pretty good.
I might suggest you begin at .025 off the lands with your starting loads and work forward and back about .006 at a time (.025, .019, .031) and fine tune from there. It may save you some ammo.

 

[Clark]

I have one or two Sinclair bullet comparators, and I have given up on them.

I am getting all the accuracy I need at 500 yards in 7mmRM just measuring to the tip of the bullet 3.34".

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

BigE... Fearnowind is spot on... though I personally have found that if I have a load that shoots .5 at 100.... by the time it gets to 600.. it opens up some. Many would say it's because the ES/SD has too wide a margin, however, if they looked at my groups, it would be apparent that my group height is only 2.5" at 600 which is not bad at all. It's my horizontal group size that opens up a bit... to about 3.5. I generally have a flyer in the mix as well, and never sure if it's my reloading practices, or just these old hands on the gun!

But... a gun that will truely hold 1" at 100... consistently... every shot... is nothing to sneeze at. As you reach out further... if your shots open up vertically... then you're getting some variation in velocity which is causing some shots to shoot flatter, or not as flat as others. Sounds like you are doing just fine though.

Boss

 

[Bigeclipse]

I believe the equipment you have is fine. A finicky target shooter might want a different setup but you're a hunter and 1 MOA is plenty good enough for hunting purposes. Consider that if you can hold 1 MOA with your rifle you should be able to hit an 8 inch target easily at 700 yards and that (IMO) is pretty good.
I might suggest you begin at .025 off the lands with your starting loads and work forward and back about .006 at a time (.025, .019, .031) and fine tune from there. It may save you some ammo.

I know for my distances and targets being large game that 1MOA is really all I need for now. Yes i am trying to stay on the cheap sides but I do not mind buying stuff here and there. The comporator with 6 different bullet sets is like 30 bucks...so nothing crazy expensive. Just curious as to advantages and such. I am always trying to improve, with-in reason of money...so will I go out and replace all my dies...no, but will I eventually buy new dies here and there for the rifles I plan on making extremely accurate, absolutely. Just want to make sure my money is going to the appropriate places.

When you say measure .025 off the lands...that is probably impossible with the current bullet choice I am using in my 3006. I am using a 150 grain accubond. I have a very deep chamber and to get .050 off the lands, the bullet is hardly seated at all. I know I can use a heavier bullet to alleviate this but hunting season is around the corner, so a new load is out of the equation until after all the current bullets I have are used up, I have about 65 left, which could last me quite a few hunting seasons, but maybe ill do some shooting just to use them up, I hate the idea I would be wearing the barrel though haha.

 

[FearNoWind]

When you say measure .025 off the lands...that is probably impossible with the current bullet choice I am using in my 3006. I am using a 150 grain accubond. I have a very deep chamber and to get .050 off the lands, the bullet is hardly seated at all.

Looks like I didn't make that statement clear. .025 off the lands assumes you have the chamber that allows that much flexibility. I sometimes get stuck in the realm of custom rifle chambers and forget the commercially produced rifles often have far more lead.
As far as gauges are concerned, I've used the Sinclair and I think it's somewhat clumsy. I much prefer the Hornady Comparator (You searched for: Hornady Comparator - MidwayUSA) for that kind of work.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Looks like I didn't make that statement clear. .025 off the lands assumes you have the chamber that allows that much flexibility. I sometimes get stuck in the realm of custom rifle chambers and forget the commercially produced rifles often have far more lead.
As far as gauges are concerned, I've used the Sinclair and I think it's somewhat clumsy. I much prefer the Hornady Comparator (You searched for: Hornady Comparator - MidwayUSA) for that kind of work.

I purchased it last night!

 

[Capt. D]

I bought Shawn Carlocks, Defensive Edge reloading video when I started reloading metalic cartridges. I use the techniques he uses in his video including the Davidson comparator. These techniques have produced bug holes at 100 and sub half minute results out to 400 in my 22-250. I was skeptical as to whether all of the equipment he uses was really necessary but with my current results I'm glad that I tooled up all at once. Now I have my new 7LRM waiting for me to get home and start load developement on it. I am confident that following the steps that shawn has laid out I will be able to produce a fine load as long as I gan get the components.gun)

 

[AZShooter]

Bigeclipse,

You may not be able to seat the bullet towards the lands but you can seat the bullet deeper in small increments to see if there is a trend. As the bullet seating depth changes in either direction it can change the harmonics of the barrel which could create tighter groups.

If you are using a RCBS seater die (or other similar die) with nothing but a locknut and adjusting screw it will be more difficult than using a competition die when changing seating depth. Here is what I have done so I can duplicate a seating depth that improved group size:

I make a dummy round for every seating depth. As I progressively rotate and lock down the seater stem I will make a dummy round and measure it to see if how far the bullet moved compared to the last increment. I try to make the movement fairly consistent like .005" or maybe .010". BUT even if the increment isn't exactly an even value I could duplicate that seating depth again by using the dummy round. Careful labeling of the dummy rounds is important. I will shoot a sample of all seating depths then duplicate the best load using the dummy round with the comparator.

I have talked to many beginner handloaders and ask them if they load for several firearms. If they say yes I then ask them how they go about setting up their seating dies to make more loads for their rifle after the die was removed for loading other firearms. Many say they use a lock ring and just screw down the die till it hits the press. I suggest to them that a lock ring setup may not be consistent. Things slip or what torque is the die tightened to? The use of a comparator will ensure that your setup/seating depth is the same as the last time you loaded up ammo for your rifle.
I have a dummy round made for every cartridge I load. You should too.

Here is an example of seating a 168 Sierra matchking in .002" increments in a 308. Note that the group size tightened then opened and tightened up again as the increments were altered. This rifle responded to some pretty small increments. I usually work with .005" or in some instances .010" to see if there is a trend then refine the seating depth again later.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Bigeclipse,

You may not be able to seat the bullet towards the lands but you can seat the bullet deeper in small increments to see if there is a trend. As the bullet seating depth changes in either direction it can change the harmonics of the barrel which could create tighter groups.

If you are using a RCBS seater die (or other similar die) with nothing but a locknut and adjusting screw it will be more difficult than using a competition die when changing seating depth. Here is what I have done so I can duplicate a seating depth that improved group size:

I make a dummy round for every seating depth. As I progressively rotate and lock down the seater stem I will make a dummy round and measure it to see if how far the bullet moved compared to the last increment. I try to make the movement fairly consistent like .005" or maybe .010". BUT even if the increment isn't exactly an even value I could duplicate that seating depth again by using the dummy round. Careful labeling of the dummy rounds is important. I will shoot a sample of all seating depths then duplicate the best load using the dummy round with the comparator.

I have talked to many beginner handloaders and ask them if they load for several firearms. If they say yes I then ask them how they go about setting up their seating dies to make more loads for their rifle after the die was removed for loading other firearms. Many say they use a lock ring and just screw down the die till it hits the press. I suggest to them that a lock ring setup may not be consistent. Things slip or what torque is the die tightened to? The use of a comparator will ensure that your setup/seating depth is the same as the last time you loaded up ammo for your rifle.
I have a dummy round made for every cartridge I load. You should too.

Here is an example of seating a 168 Sierra matchking in .002" increments in a 308. Note that the group size tightened then opened and tightened up again as the increments were altered. This rifle responded to some pretty small increments. I usually work with .005" or in some instances .010" to see if there is a trend then refine the seating depth again later.

Actually funny you should say that...I never lock down the locking ring because I measure every round to the tip..which will change when the comparator comes in but my current process is...Lets say I am targeting 3.308 for seating. I set the die up backed all the way out and put the first round in. I raise the ram...then bring the die down to touch the bullet. Then lower the ram, and screw the die in a few turns to seat the bullet initially. I then continue turning in the die until I get the bullet to say over all length of 3.410. this usually only takes me a couple presses. Now comes the somewhat tedious part, I then raise and lower the ram while doing 1/4-1/8 turns of the die until I hit exactly 3.308 with that initial round. I take that round out and put the next one in, however I back out the die 1/4 turn because I have seen variences in overall length when locking the die down. I then seat the next bullet...it will typically be very close say for instance 3.338...I will then just turn the die a hair maybe 2-3 times before I get this next round seated to exactly 3.308 on my calipers. I am not sure if this repeated seating of the bullets has an effect on accuracy or if I am simply taking a lot of time doing it this way which i do not mind since I do not shoot a lot...again these are hunting rifles.