Berger vs ELDX on steel

[338 dude]

This would be the very first occasion I recall a Berger bullet being described as "tough".

Are the "classic hunters" different from EH's concerning jacket thickness or construction?
I realize the HT is heavier built than EH, jacket-wise.

Through a bull elk's shoulders? Assuming no major size bone contact that's still quite a feat. Most Berger shooters seem to avoid the shoulder, for a reason.

I guess a plugged tip could make it pierce and keep on going in meat though.

Classic hunters, are a lower BC a more rounded shape.

 

[338 dude]

I was getting the same results with Berger VLDH bullets up until just after they sold to capstone. I don't know if they changed a processes but I started NOT getting pass throughs even with mild cartridges like 308 Win on small body Texas whitetail.

With the 6.5 VLD hunters it's hit and miss I've had complete pass-throughs and others that didn't penetrate much at all.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

Classic hunters, are a lower BC a more rounded shape.

Deadly lil' fudgers for, sure !!
I bought 200 More after,. "Punching thru", my last, Elk
Maybe, a "Magic Bullet", Design ??
Dunno,. but,.. I LIKE, them !

 

[IHFarmer07]

With my 6.5prc loads, the 147eldm(if it makes it there in one piece) will not divot my homemade grader blade target at 650y going 3003fps vs my 156 berger load going 2937fps at 650y. The 156g Berger's completely smacks that target with vengeance and sometimes cracks and or knocks a hole right through it, it's impressive.

 

[southpa]

This is a funny thread. Everything I've shot with bergers be straight up dead. Doesn't surprise me that its "tougher" than a hornady.

 

[AZShooter]

Glad I bought the thicker 1/2" AR500 8" gong.

I shoot several Bergers at the gong including the 257 weatherby 115 VLD hunting Berger @ 3676. Those bullets are moly coated and make an interesting bluish circle around the shiny dent. The 300 gr .338 bullets sent at a mundane 2450 can wrap the chain suspended gong at 350 yds if it is hit it too low.

 

[Farmerbrown32]

The lapua scenar is one tough bullet. They hit rocks and gongs harder then any other bullet ive shot. 120,123 and 139 grain scenars. Must have a very thick jacket.

 

[lancetkenyon]

And people say "Bergers have no penetration"...

 

[L2land]

I'm an engineer by trade but I don't have a lot of info on your setups. I'd say tip design is a big factor. You have a plastic tip where as his tip is copper. Essentially, your bullet is striking the target and is being slowed down and prematurely expanded by the plastic tip as it crushes against the plate. By the time your tip has collapsed to reach the jacket your bullet has a decent sized surface area upon which its energy is transferred into the plate. His bullet has a solid tip and a much smaller surface area when striking the plate. That's the key to defeating armor, steel, etc. You need the necessary energy behind a high density, hard material that is adequately focused in order to penetrate. Copper is hardly a good material for armor penetration but in this case it's penetrating mild steel with a very high velocity and a decent amount of momentum. That's why M855 is very good at penetrating lower grades of armor. It's very fast, and has a fine point on a solid jacket with a steel core.

I'm NOT an engineer but I'd like your thoughts. If it was a hunting VLD does it make sense that the longer profile and being all copper penetrate the mild steel because of the rapid focused heat transfer? The poly tip does what you stated plus it wouldn't focus the heat needed to pierce the mild plate into such a small surface area? I'm comparing to how a shaped charge works to pierce steel in my mind.

 

[Joefrazell]

I think the tip in the eldm could make the difference you're seeing. It's just the tip…sorry I had to.

 

[CaneBrake]

I'm NOT an engineer but I'd like your thoughts. If it was a hunting VLD does it make sense that the longer profile and being all copper penetrate the mild steel because of the rapid focused heat transfer? The poly tip does what you stated plus it wouldn't focus the heat needed to pierce the mild plate into such a small surface area? I'm comparing to how a shaped charge works to pierce steel in my mind.

Basically the energy of the solid, more fine tip is focused on a smaller surface area. All that energy transferred to such a small surface area surpasses the strength of the material and the bullet begins to penetrate. Heat is a byproduct of that transfer of energy from pressure, friction, etc. The poly tip isn't strong enough to withstand the force of impact and yields much faster than the plate. The bullet continues to yield and deform until the poly tip completely collapses and the copper makes contact with the plate, but by then the bullet has already lost a lot of energy and the surface area of the bullet tip is much larger. Then larger tip now spreads its remaining energy across the much larger surface area and isn't enough to shear the plate. The plate yields, but it doesn't shear.

 

[southpa]

Basically the energy of the solid, more fine tip is focused on a smaller surface area. All that energy transferred to such a small surface area surpasses the strength of the material and the bullet begins to penetrate. Heat is a byproduct of that transfer of energy from pressure, friction, etc. The poly tip isn't strong enough to withstand the force of impact and yields much faster than the plate. The bullet continues to yield and deform until the poly tip completely collapses and the copper makes contact with the plate, but by then the bullet has already lost a lot of energy and the surface area of the bullet tip is much larger. Then larger tip now spreads its remaining energy across the much larger surface area and isn't enough to shear the plate. The plate yields, but it doesn't shear.

So here's a question...which one is better?

 

[shaughn]

What about dwell time ??? Oh wait! That belongs in the Big Boy Games and 10", 12" to 16" class rifles not the kind of stuff we get to play with ....

 

[CaneBrake]

So here's a question...which one is better?

Very hard question to answer without doing lots of testing with each. It depends on shot placement, what animal is being hunted, velocity, bullet construction (the parts we don't know like jacket thickness), and other variables. Just based on wild guesses, I would speculate that the Bergers that have a copper tip and a small meplat are going to be less susceptible to expansion on smaller game like deer and that's why you hear stories of such things happening. However, if hitting bone or a large animal like an elk then the Berger is going to create some carnage. The ELD-X I would guess is going to expand more reliably however if hitting the same bone or large animal it might expand too much and stop before hitting vital organs or penetrating completely through the animal. These are just the extremes based on very few characteristics and aren't a guarantee. There is a lot more to be evaluated before making a final decision. I'm sure they both do well on their targeted game.