Bear spray vs Bullets

[MontanaRifleman]

What is the take away lesson the bear receives from being sprayed, or for that matter a "warning shot?

Neither of my grand fathers would tolerate aggressive behavior from any animal on the place. Call it "cultural bias if you want, but I believe taking animals that knowingly display aggressive behavior towards humans should be removed from the gene pool.

After their first encounter with a skunk, most if not all animals steer well clear of them. Is the same true for spray... I don't know... I do know that I will never take another test whiff (my first was accidental) of spray.

I also agree 100% that bold and/or aggressive bears should be removed from the gene pool but unfortunately, the authorities do not allow us the discretion of making that determination. In Montana (and I'm sure Paul will confirm the same for AK) if you cannot prove a clear case of DLP you're going to be in for one very bad experience. Big fines and loss of hunting privileges. If you want to practice the 3 S's, have at it. I know it is done, but it is risky and it is not easy to hide a bear carcass.

Had I decided to cull the bold blackie that I mentioned in an earlier post, the first thing FWP would have asked me is, "why didn't you call us?".

Most problem bears are relocated. Very, very few are destroyed and it is almost always the result of an "unprovoked" attack on humans... unprovoked.

 

[FEENIX]

Most problem bears are relocated. Very, very few are destroyed and it is almost always the result of an "unprovoked" attack on humans... unprovoked.

Yep, and Carrie Hunt and her Wind River Bear Institute (Wind River Bear Institute: Karelian Bear Dogs, Bear Shepherding) bear shepherding team (along with parnership with other organizations) has been instrumental here in MT, WA, AK (and other states) and Canada (and other countries).





This team are retiring >>> http://www.king5.com/story/tech/sci...dlife-officer-canine-partner-retire/24157107/



NOTE: There's some inaccuracies in the Animal Planet video but overall, a very good presentation of the breed. The Karelian Bear Dogs (KBD) and the Russo-European Laikas (REL) are amazing dogs.

As I said in #2, I carry both a bear spray and .44 Mag along with my Karelian Bear Dog when hiking/camping in bear country.

 

[Pdvdh]

In Montana (and I'm sure Paul will confirm the same for AK) if you cannot prove a clear case of DLP you're going to be in for one very bad experience.

Mark,
Rarely has anyone in Alaska been charged over a Defense of Life & Property (DLP) killing of bear during my time here. Honestly, I can't recall even one. I conclude that's a consequence of any number of factors. Our bears have killed, our bears are large and intimidating, there's no shortage of them in Alaska, our bears cause damage property, and I don't think the culture - across the board - societal, agencies, court system, provides any rewards for going after someone that kills a bear in DLP.

The shooter is quite clearly given the benefit of the doubt, in my area of the State. I've never heard of anyone being charged for taking a bear in DLP, and trust me, it would make the news. All bear stories make the news up here.

If there's a bear in someone's yard, and there are children at that residence, that's commonly all it takes. Some folk don't call F&G until the bears dead. There's no requirement to call and report the problem before killing the bear. Defense of Life and Property is taken at face value. Over and done and life goes on.

Now, if you poach a moose out of season, it's a different story. But even moose are killed in defense of life and property, but infrequently. I know a guy that killed a bull moose during the rut in DLP. The State did charge him, but the charges were eventually dropped. He'd only been in the State for maybe two years. Was out hunting black bear and a moose came running down the trail he was on. I have no idea if the moose needed to be killed or not. For the unbelieving, moose do kill people in Alaska every now and then.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Mark,
Rarely has anyone in Alaska been charged over a Defense of Life & Property (DLP) killing of bear during my time here. Honestly, I can't recall even one. I conclude that's a consequence of any number of factors. Our bears have killed, our bears are large and intimidating, there's no shortage of them in Alaska, our bears cause damage property, and I don't think the culture - across the board - societal, agencies, court system, provides any rewards for going after someone that kills a bear in DLP.

The shooter is quite clearly given the benefit of the doubt, in my area of the State. I've never heard of anyone being charged for taking a bear in DLP, and trust me, it would make the news. All bear stories make the news up here.

If there's a bear in someone's yard, and there are children at that residence, that's commonly all it takes. Some folk don't call F&G until the bears dead. There's no requirement to call and report the problem before killing the bear. Defense of Life and Property is taken at face value. Over and done and life goes on.

Now, if you poach a moose out of season, it's a different story. But even moose are killed in defense of life and property, but infrequently. I know a guy that killed a bull moose during the rut in DLP. The State did charge him, but the charges were eventually dropped. He'd only been in the State for maybe two years. Was out hunting black bear and a moose came running down the trail he was on. I have no idea if the moose needed to be killed or not. For the unbelieving, moose do kill people in Alaska every now and then.

Well I guess things are a little different up there than here. I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone shoots a bear in their yard here without contacting LE or FWP first and are not in immediate danger they will be prosecuted.

To tell you the truth, I only remember 2 DLP cases here in MT where the bear was not clearly attacking or threatening the defender. The one about the rancher I mentioned earlier happened in the late 80's. They took blood samples of the bear and determined it did not have enough adrenaline in its system to warrant a DLP killing. He was fined $15K and loss of hunting privileges. The other was an older woman rancher who lived right on the edge of the Gallatins not too far from me. A sow griz and 2 cubs wandered into her yard with cows present and she got her rifle out and shot them dead. FWP decided they were going to prosecute her and pretty much all the the farmers and ranchers in Montana rallied behind her and told FWP they would shut down hunting and fishing access in the state, so FWP dropped the case.

There is a large concentration of black bears here in the Gallatins just South of Bozeman and I am on a creek that drains north out of the mountains and there is a lot of bear traffic along that creek and other creeks and trails that lead toward Bozeman. I get plenty of bears in and out of my yard every year and it is fairly common for some bears to travel all the way into to town (about another 5 miles). To the best of my knowledge, none of those bears have ever been destroyed. I remember one story where a sow and her 2 cubs were up a tree just outside a bank and were darted and removed. Another story of a bear wandering around town during trick or treat. Many cases over the years of bears in town in peoples yards and wandering the streets.

Some info for the readers on AK DLP policy

What To Do If You Have A Conflict With A Bear, Alaska Department of Fish and Game

Safety in Bear Country, Alaska Department of Fish and Game

The meat of a game animal you have legally taken becomes your property, but you may not kill another wild animal such as a bear to protect the meat unless the meat is necessary for your livelihood or survival" (emphasis added). This is a very strict standard, and one that is typically not the case for recreational hunters. This means that, if you get meat back to camp and a bear takes the meat while in camp, you may be cited if you kill the bear raiding your meat cache and try to claim it as a DLP killing

 

[T3-OleMan]

"Black bears have killed 61 people across North America since 1900".


North American Bear Center - How dangerous are black bears?


Ref my earlier post......think I'll never have that decision to make in CO while ELK hunting based on the 61 people in North America in last 115 years. I'll just wait till he/she hits me first, then it is ON!

Did photo a 9.5" track in snow in 2013 but I'll rest easier since we know that there are no Grizz s in CO.

Paul and Mark and the rest might have to still decide what your threat circle is.
Good luck.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I did a little googling

Rancher fined for killing grizzly; reward up to $6,000 in Dupuyer area shooting | Great Falls Tribune | greatfallstribune.com

Fairfield rancher fined $2K for killing grizzly bear

Man Fined for Killing Grizzly Bear to Protect His Family| Latest News Videos | Fox News

No Right to Shoot Marauding Grizzly Bears, Ranchers Told - latimes

Grizzly shooter garners support - Coeur d'Alene Press: Local News

The difference between Alaska and the lower 48 is grizzlies are a "threatened" species here. You can only kill them in self defense if you are imminently in danger.

Political BS... Grizzlies are not threatened or endangered. They are thriving and need to be managed through hunting and harvest.

 

[T3-OleMan]

I did a little googling....................
..........................................
.......................................................
Political BS... Grizzlies are not threatened or endangered. They are thriving and need to be managed through hunting and harvest.

Thanks Mark.

It is all PC (D) BS!
Good luck to ya'll up there in the land of the Grizzlies and the WOOOOFFFSSS!
It will be A O K......hillary has got your backs.

 

[Marine sniper]

I have not read all the pages- but I will add in my .02. I think the best handgun there is for Grizz / Brown bear is a Glock or other high capacity .45 converted to .460 Roland. The 460 Roland has the ballistics as a .44 mag. In a 14 shot platform- they are BAD- MF'ers.

.460 Rowland

 

[Losthwy]

I have not read all the pages- but I will add in my .02. I think the best handgun there is for Grizz / Brown bear is a Glock or other high capacity .45 converted to .460 Roland. The 460 Roland has the ballistics as a .44 mag. In a 14 shot platform- they are BAD- MF'ers.

.460 Rowland

http://www.adn.com/article/are-guns-more-effective-pepper-spray-alaska-bear-attack

Some highlights from the article
Of the handguns tested, only the .44 magnum was powerful enough to be considered minimally effective, and it ranked well below most of the rifles and the shotgun with slugs. The authors deemed the .44 magnum a backup weapon, useful primarily in that it can be strapped to your body whereas a rifle or shotgun may be out of reach when the attack occurs. The .357 magnum and .45 were not adequate. The authors did not test the .454 Casull or any .50 caliber handguns, recommended by some advocates....

 

[Marine sniper]

Are guns more effective than pepper spray in an Alaska bear attack? | Alaska Dispatch News

Some highlights from the article
Of the handguns tested, only the .44 magnum was powerful enough to be considered minimally effective, and it ranked well below most of the rifles and the shotgun with slugs. The authors deemed the .44 magnum a backup weapon, useful primarily in that it can be strapped to your body whereas a rifle or shotgun may be out of reach when the attack occurs. The .357 magnum and .45 were not adequate. The authors did not test the .454 Casull or any .50 caliber handguns, recommended by some advocates....

There is a big difference between a .44 revolver and a 14 shot compensated .44 mag.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: Bear spray did not help

Another brown bear mauling in my area. Central Emergency Services spokesman "says the woman tried to use bear spray but found it did not help." That, according to this news article in the Alaska Dispatch News.

Woman injured in Alaska brown bear attack | Fox News

That's a terrible time to find out that the bear spray doesn't help. Further articles/details often follow after the victim is stabilized and recovering... Will be interesting to learn more about the use of the bear spray in this mauling.

 

[crspyone]

Re: Bear spray did not help

Crazy these cases of bear spray not working as intended , or just not working at all..

I'll stick to my 12g defender stuffed with slugs and 000

 

[6point5x284]

I don't know MarineSniper, but I like him already! I'll have to look into a .460 Roland!! I use a S&W 329 (scandium) in .44 Mag with HSM 305 grain bear loads. There are a lot of reviews on this gun. I'm sure some are in the 230 replies I didn't have time to read. The 2012+ models of this gun have a factory rubber grip included that covers the metal backstrap but is still smaller than the .500 S&W grips. I love this gun. Crazy light, great factory sight (for quick target acquisition), and adjustable. With the rubber grip, I didn't even start with a light load, I only shot the HSM bear loads. It kicks, but was nothing like the reviews I read expressed. They way they wrote about the recoil, I thought my wrists would break. If you have a good shooting posture/grip, it's very manageable. Overall, I am VERY pleased with it as a pack gun. If I wanted a dedicated range gun in a large 40+ caliber, I would choose a Ruger without question. But for a gun that is a backup to archery in MT griz country, I'll take packability any day. I have found guns that are heavy just get packed less and less. I forget this one is even on after 10 minutes. I'll take bullets over spray any day. If I die...I want the bear to die with me. For anyone who has not witnessed what a .44 Mag will do with hard cast solids, they will absolutely penetrate a bear length wise. The difference between a .44 Mag with hard cast lead solids and a .454 or .500 with hard cast solids is a minute amount of width. They will all pass through a bear length wise no matter what it hits on the way in.

 

[Marine sniper]

I don't know MarineSniper, but I like him already! I'll have to look into a .460 Roland!! I use a S&W 329 (scandium) in .44 Mag with HSM 305 grain bear loads. There are a lot of reviews on this gun. I'm sure some are in the 230 replies I didn't have time to read. The 2012+ models of this gun have a factory rubber grip included that covers the metal backstrap but is still smaller than the .500 S&W grips. I love this gun. Crazy light, great factory sight (for quick target acquisition), and adjustable. With the rubber grip, I didn't even start with a light load, I only shot the HSM bear loads. It kicks, but was nothing like the reviews I read expressed. They way they wrote about the recoil, I thought my wrists would break. If you have a good shooting posture/grip, it's very manageable. Overall, I am VERY pleased with it as a pack gun. If I wanted a dedicated range gun in a large 40+ caliber, I would choose a Ruger without question. But for a gun that is a backup to archery in MT griz country, I'll take packability any day. I have found guns that are heavy just get packed less and less. I forget this one is even on after 10 minutes. I'll take bullets over spray any day. If I die...I want the bear to die with me. For anyone who has not witnessed what a .44 Mag will do with hard cast solids, they will absolutely penetrate a bear length wise. The difference between a .44 Mag with hard cast lead solids and a .454 or .500 with hard cast solids is a minute amount of width. They will all pass through a bear length wise no matter what it hits on the way in.

My .460 is a converted Springfield 5.25 match XDM. It weighs less than my Les Baer 1911 .45 and packs a lot more wallop. I agree- heavy guns are a PIA- particularly when relegated to the role of "back up"

.460 Roland sells 250 gr. hardcast bullets (1300 fps)