A Short History on Inflation - Why Component Costs and No Costs Are Going Down Soon

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No, you're focusing narrowly on an income concept and trying to apply it to post-consumption discretion. Marginal utility of income is using disposable and non-disposal income to weight consumption by elasticity, and inelastic items get treated preferentially. "Not necessary" is a way of saying that it can be spent based upon wants rather than actual needs. Wealth accumulation isn't an economic necessity. Every person has base level needs that include food, shelter, and a minimal level of physical safety, the costs of which can be quantified.


It's a pretty straightforward concept: if you make $1,000 a month, a larger portion of your income goes to purchase inelastic demand items than if you make $10,000 a month, and by the time you hit $100,000/mo of income the percentage (and real amount) of disposal income has grown even more.

All three of those people could live in a $300/mo apartment if they wanted to, but only the lowest chooses to and the other two choose to live somewhere else.

$1k/mo guy pays 0% income tax on the $300/mo he uses to pay his rent, and his total cost is $300.

$10k/mo guy lives in a $2,000/mo house, and he still pays 0% on the $300 but also pays 20% on the $1,700 additional dollars he spends on his rent. His total cost is effectively $2,340.

$100k/mo guy lives in a mansion that costs $20k/mo to operate and maintain. He pays 20% on the first $5k of that, then pays 37% on the rest, and doesn't get a 0% rate on any of it because he's phased out of refundable credits that made the allowed the other to to pay 0% (or less) at some point. His total cost is $26,550.

There's no judgement on specifically what is and is not "necessary" and each is entirely free to choose to pay or not pay whatever they want constrained only by their income. The adjustment is in real price due to what extent each of theirs next dollar (the "marginal" dollar) is taxed, and the consumer retains free choice about what to do with their dollars spent on housing.


I don't disagree with you, Romney was correct in saying that the bottom 47% of wage earners pay no (or even negative) income tax. The system has been abused because there shouldn't be a negative range and the 0% range should be very limited.

The underlying economic logic is sound, but it is also abused and stretched and has additional judgements built in over and above the mathematical answer.
That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language. But it's difficult for people to see which walnut shell is hiding the pea when most of us are concerned with how many of our hard earned dollars remain after paying our monthly bills. To us, if we have anything left over, that's our disposable income which we can spend however we choose. As for people who work at jobs that do not offer adequate compensation for them to maintain anything close to a decent standard of living, they absolutely should receive workman's compensation which, I assume, is what you mean by negative tax. Take that away and a whole segment of the economy, along with marginally profitable local businesses, go away with it.
 
That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language. But it's difficult for people to see which walnut shell is hiding the pea when most of us are concerned with how many of our hard earned dollars remain after paying our monthly bills. To us, if we have anything left over, that's our disposable income which we can spend however we choose. As for people who work at jobs that do not offer adequate compensation for them to maintain anything close to a decent standard of living, they absolutely should receive workman's compensation which, I assume, is what you mean by negative tax. Take that away and a whole segment of the economy, along with marginally profitable local businesses, go away with it.
I think what he means by negative income tax, isn't the same as workman's compensation, it's more you get money "back" in your refund in the thousands of dollars when you only paid in the hundreds of dollars. I know people that say they're getting a big tax refund, when really they're just getting money that they never paid into the tax system "back". That's hardly a refund, just by the definition of the word.
 
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That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language. But it's difficult for people to see which walnut shell is hiding the pea when most of us are concerned with how many of our hard earned dollars remain after paying our monthly bills. To us, if we have anything left over, that's our disposable income which we can spend however we choose. As for people who work at jobs that do not offer adequate compensation for them to maintain anything close to a decent standard of living, they absolutely should receive workman's compensation which, I assume, is what you mean by negative tax. Take that away and a whole segment of the economy, along with marginally profitable local businesses, go away with it.
Let me add that I don't think people should be getting back more than they paid into the system. That's not fair at all. That's someone else's money they're handing out. If you're in the the range where 0 is your obligation then you should only be getting back what you paid. if that's $100, $1000, or $0 then that's what you get when tax season is over. Not paying $300 and getting $3000 "back". That's not fair.
 
That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language. But it's difficult for people to see which walnut shell is hiding the pea when most of us are concerned with how many of our hard earned dollars remain after paying our monthly bills. To us, if we have anything left over, that's our disposable income which we can spend however we choose. As for people who work at jobs that do not offer adequate compensation for them to maintain anything close to a decent standard of living, they absolutely should receive workman's compensation which, I assume, is what you mean by negative tax. Take that away and a whole segment of the economy, along with marginally profitable local businesses, go away with it.
workman's compensation has nothing to do with wages or normal earnings. It is a payment for those who become disabled due to injury in the workplace. Its more like disability insurance. It has nothing to do with wages or taxable income, or disposable income.
 
I think what he means by negative income tax, isn't the same as workman's compensation, it's more you get money 'back' in your refund in the thousands of dollars when you only paid in the hundreds of dollars. I know people that say they're getting a big tax refund, when really they're just getting money that they never paid into the tax system back. That's hardly a refund, just by the definition of the word.
Correct, the Earned Income Credit and the Child Tax Credit are the most commonly used "refundable" credits that can result in a refund in excess of taxes withheld, commonly called a negative income tax because specifically with the EIC there is a range where each next dollar of income earned results in an additional credit, so the government is paying you for making that next dollar. It's been around on the theoretical side since since Nixon, was originally implemented in 1975, but the largest expansion was part of the Clinton-era work incentive reforms in 1993.

Worker's comp is state-level unemployment and disability insurance - OASDI is the rough Federal equivalent and is paid for via a 2.9% payroll tax split between employee and employer.

A taxpayer's "refund" is generally the excess of what the taxpayer paid in or what withheld on their behalf over what their liability was. Many people who rave about large refunds are really only getting their own money back that they could have kept from each paycheck, but they don't know how the W-4 works. Some taxpayer's receive additional cash on their tax return via refundable credits.

This last year was interesting in that the temporarily expanded child tax credit was pre-rebated monthly from August to December 2021, to the tune of $300 per child 6 and under, and $250 for children over 6. The credit was only expanded from $2,000 to to $3,600 ($3,000 over 6), so a portion of the pre-expansion credit was paid, meaning some people are filing 1040s right now are short $200 bucks a kid compared to last year on the return, and will likely be more upset about a smaller refund rather than taking a second to realize they received $1,800 (or $1,500) in cash already.

The CTC expansion was the first functional iteration of universal basic income in the US at the Federal level, a policy goal of the Democratic Party that they partially slipped into the budget, and partially hid from their own supporters. Basically no one is talking about that, either against OR on the side of supporting it. It's bizarre political theater that one of the mostly hotly debated tax policy issues of this century came and went under the radar.

That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language.
The US school system should do a better job at teach kids useful things, and US adults should be more civically involved and able to talk about important concepts that affect their lives. I fought for my education and apparently got more from it than the average person who gets it handed to them. Every US citizen is a taxpayer, and every US citizen should know the structure of the systems they pay into.

That's a interesting conundrum - when people don't utilize the hand-outs and hands-up given to them, who is to blame for unequal outcomes?

My argument for less Federal government and more state and local government is that it increases the number of people involved with the system, and makes the system more accessible and less mystifying to people. Term limits at every level would help eviscerate the permanent political over-class that runs this country from top to bottom. Ordinary people will in general make decisions as well as so-called "experts" because the "wrong" answer is most often wrong because it's not timely, not because it's a bad decision. More people making more decisions should average out to a better answer, and limit the impact of bad answers to smaller groups.
 
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Happy you got that off your chest, but I didn't say those things you accuse me of saying. I said, nor implied, nothing about redistribution or people sitting home living off government handouts. The only thing I've described is a possible mechanism for a fair and balanced tax structure. Period. Sorry if that upsets you.
He turned my discussion around too, so I left the convo. He wants to be seen as being smart, correct, etc rather than have a discussion.
 
That's all well and good if you're attending an economics convention where everyone speaks your language. But it's difficult for people to see which walnut shell is hiding the pea when most of us are concerned with how many of our hard earned dollars remain after paying our monthly bills. To us, if we have anything left over, that's our disposable income which we can spend however we choose. As for people who work at jobs that do not offer adequate compensation for them to maintain anything close to a decent standard of living, they absolutely should receive workman's compensation which, I assume, is what you mean by negative tax. Take that away and a whole segment of the economy, along with marginally profitable local businesses, go away with it.
Sorry - my mistake. I meant to say Earned Income Credit.
 
He turned my discussion around too, so I left the convo. He wants to be seen as being smart, correct, etc rather than have a discussion.
Oregonian,
I apologize if I have in any way hurt your feelings. If I am wrong, I say so, and I sometimes am, because I'm human, but I don't think anything I have said in this thread is wrong or really overly hurtful, and certainly was never personal. I probably just have a different point of view than you do. I think you ended up saying we actually agreed?
 
Wow, You're on top of your game Len, Thanks for the reminder. Truth is this is a generational issue that those under 50 really don't have a fear of inflation because of no experience. Those of us that lived through the late 70's and early 80's are fearful. When it takes $100 to buy what $20 bought it's really hard for pay increases to keep up. When you put everything on your plastic and then find no more money in your bank account to pay the bill it's a wake up call. I think we're going to see some wake up calls in the future. I remember going to the grocery store and half the items you put in the basket didn't have a price until check out because prices were changing daily and hourly. There may come a day when $140 for a brick of primers sounds good. I hope not!!!

Where did you get that amazing goat in your profile pic?
 
Speaking of Inflation
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I got the goat in Terrace BC. Hardest hunt of my life, Mid February, deep snow but a long hair goat. It's one of my special trophies.

Interesting thread. Truth is inflation is a tax on the poor and middle income in our society. Tax the rich and business sounds and feels good but it can't and won't solve the problem. As a business owner I don't and will never pay taxes no mater how high the government and people chose to raise them. My consumers that buy my products pay the tax. I'll just keep raising my price so l can make a profit and employ people . If I don't make a profit they all loose their jobs. Inflation destroys the little guy always.
 
My consumers that buy my products pay the tax. I'll just keep raising my price so l can make a profit and employ people . If I don't make a profit they all loose their jobs. Inflation destroys the little guy always.
It's amazing to me how people can't come to terms with that.
 
It's amazing to me how people can't come to terms with that.
It's doubly amazing that many self-employed people I help don't realize they can do that. When they finally realize how much they're paying in taxes and ask what they can do about that, me saying "raise your prices" makes them blink.

Sure being 30% under market brings in a lot of business, but once you have enough you need to expand to service it all that's not a bad time to ease off the discounts some and increase your margin.
 
It's doubly amazing that many self-employed people I help don't realize they can do that. When they finally realize how much they're paying in taxes and ask what they can do about that, me saying "raise your prices" makes them blink.

Sure being 30% under market brings in a lot of business, but once you have enough you need to expand to service it all that's not a bad time to ease off the discounts some and increase your margin.
Hey QT, can you tell Uncle Sam he needs to raise the IRS standard mileage rates!

58.5 cents per mile dont hardly cut it at $4-5 gasoline!

Those here who do a lot of driving in their business gonna really need to raise prices just to break even!

Please PM the IRS for an interim adjustment!

Gracias de mucho por seguro.
 
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