6.5mm copper monos for Elk - LRX vs CX vs E-tip vs CEB vs Hammer vs Lehigh

[MT-Shooter]

I wonder about that, too.

I have been moving toward mono bullets the last few years because of the damage lead bullets do to raptors, especially eagles. Latest studies coming out show the debilitating effects of lead on them. Almost all birds tested had high concentrations of lead in their systems which causes their talons to curl up and they slowly starve to death. Don't want that on my conscience. Monos do a good job of killing quickly if we do our part.

 

[FEENIX]

I have been moving toward mono bullets the last few years because of the damage lead bullets do to raptors, especially eagles. Latest studies coming out show the debilitating effects of lead on them. Almost all birds tested had high concentrations of lead in their systems which causes their talons to curl up and they slowly starve to death. Don't want that on my conscience. Monos do a good job of killing quickly if we do our part.

Oh boy, not this again.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/bald-eagle-populations-have-skyrocketed-last-decade-180977342/#:~:text=Eagle populations quadrupled in size since 2009 with,30,548 nesting pairs, reports Sophie Lewis for CBS.


1963: Only 417 known nesting pairs in the lower 48 states, due to use of pesticides, namely DDT; human disturbance; land conversion and loss of trees for nesting habitat

1972: Federal government banned general use of DDT, a chemical shown to cause a thinning of eagle egg shells and leading to increase death of young.

1978: Bald eagles listed as endangered under the Endangered Species Act.

Mid- to late 1970s: There were only three known bald eagle nests in Colorado, none on the Front Range.

2007: Bald eagles delisted from Endangered Species Act but remain protected by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

2020: Bald eagle numbers have quadrupled since 2009, reaching 71,400 nesting pairs and an estimated 316,700 individual bald eagles in the lower 48 states, according to the federal government. In Colorado, reported bald eagle nests number more than 200.

(https://www.coloradoan.com/story/ne...spite-human-population-increasing/7962530002/)

 

[rlshrumva]

Good on you Feenix for going to the science and facts. I think we are all susceptible to allowing snippets form our views in the micro-news world we live in. And bringing issues back to science and fact generally runs things back to the ground.

Along those same lines, and moving back to the original point of question/discussion of this thread: Why so much talk about the correct bullet to use on "elk" with a very marginal caliber? My humble view is that we as hunters owe it to the animals to bring our best equipment and skills to make ethical quick kills. So again, shoot a bigger gun - something that can push a 160 grain+ bullet at 3000 fps or better for longer range shots. Just my 2 cents…

 

[Reemty J]

We. As humans have more lead in our systems than raptors, and here in Montana the raptors are raising heck with our game birds,wild goat lambs, sheep lambs and antelope, mainly the golden Eagle, enough of the predator coddling.

 

[HARPERC]

After shutting down the logging industry in the PNW to save the spotted owls, the USFWS finally admits it's larger protected raptors taking their place. There is a plan to kill 500,000 Barred owls, as the smaller owl edges towards extinction. In spite of being given all the protection of the law.

Local caribou herd is extinct following receiving all the government protection from humans. Wolves, lions, and bears didn't care about the endangered species act one bit.

 

[RevJim]

A gent over in Colorado awhile back used the 121 Hammer in his 264 Mod 70 Extreme Weather on a humungous cow elk. Before that, he used alot of 120gr Barnes out of a .260. Hard to argue with complete penetration on elk with soup in between, ha. Good luck to you Pard.

 

[MT-Shooter]

We. As humans have more lead in our systems than raptors, and here in Montana the raptors are raising heck with our game birds,wild goat lambs, sheep lambs and antelope, mainly the golden Eagle, enough of the predator coddling.

I have no problem with predator control. I just don't believe that they need to be tortured before they die. What ever happened to making clean kills? True science shows that more and more raptors are dying from ingesting fragmented lead, most likely from gut piles. This does cause their talons to curl and if lead ingestion is high enough, they will starve. This is a personal choice that I have made, however, I would hope that folks would do some real research for themselves and make their own decision.

 

[FEENIX]

Good on you Feenix for going to the science and facts. I think we are all susceptible to allowing snippets form our views in the micro-news world we live in. And bringing issues back to science and fact generally runs things back to the ground.

We. As humans have more lead in our systems than raptors, and here in Montana the raptors are raising heck with our game birds,wild goat lambs, sheep lambs and antelope, mainly the golden Eagle, enough of the predator coddling.

Agreed!

 

[stinkyduck13]

I have no problem with predator control. I just don't believe that they need to be tortured before they die. What ever happened to making clean kills? True science shows that more and more raptors are dying from ingesting fragmented lead, most likely from gut piles. This does cause their talons to curl and if lead ingestion is high enough, they will starve. This is a personal choice that I have made, however, I would hope that folks would do some real research for themselves and make their own decision.

People don't usually shoot animals in the stomach?

 

[rlshrumva]

Bigger gun is not necessarily the answer. When you look at the numbers of elk harvested cleanly over the years with the .270 and 130 gr bullets, it's hard to say the .264 isn't adequate. I've harvested more elk with my .25-06 and 117 and 120 gr bullets than any other caliber I have, all clean kills. Longest was 450 yards, so no real long range. Staying within limitations and bullet placement, as always are key.

Bob, I can't and don't disagree with the facts of history as it relates to the 270 or any caliber that people have killed elk with them.

Where I'm coming from is that this is a long range forum, and as you know as a hunter field conditions are not often ideal for a bench like solid rest. And as you mention, the shooter/hunter needs to understand their limitations, and I would contend that most don't, especially in the heat of the moment…

So, my conclusion is prepare for the worst (a bad shot) and hope (and practice) for the best. Hence, shoot a bigger gun, especially on a huge animal like elk.

 

[Mschroeder40]

I have no problem with predator control. I just don't believe that they need to be tortured before they die. What ever happened to making clean kills? True science shows that more and more raptors are dying from ingesting fragmented lead, most likely from gut piles. This does cause their talons to curl and if lead ingestion is high enough, they will starve. This is a personal choice that I have made, however, I would hope that folks would do some real research for themselves and make their own decision.

That's why I have chosen to drink soy milk it's a personal choice to raise my estrogen levels.

 

[snox801]

Opinions??????? Theoretical facts & figures, wow, Really? How long has Barnes been around, how much game has been killed with Barnes bullets? Much longer than your Hammer & etc!!! I just don't understand all of the Barnes bashers on this site, at least it seems to me like it. I'll take a Barnes any day over your other copper mono bullets! They're as successful, & more than most, as any bullet out there in the last 40 years or more. They do have a PROVEN track record, they wouldn't have been around as long as they have if not, search it for yourself. Enuf said. Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, but just had to give my 2 cents worth & that's probably all it's worth.

I wouldn't call it bashing more so better options have come about. I used to shoot Barnes. But I simply found a much better bullet in cutting edge. Then the hammers were much better than those. Barnes are ok but they have a downfall now f being harder than hammers and cutting edge. They are made to mushroom not shed. Which is not quite as good. Most cup core shed some weight that's why they are so good. I kill a lot of animals roughly 100 big game a year. I can say that over several years using each Barnes were ok but not in the same league as cutting edge or hammer. In fact they would be last on my list for monos. I'd still be shooting a lot of cup core if Barnes were the only option.
Many products have long runs with success but as time moves on the get better products to market. Nosler partition had been killing things for longer than most doesn't make it the best bullet by today's standards. Maybe a better bc and tipp it could be but it simply is not.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I want to pick a 6.5mm copper mono for elk and I'd like to stay under 1.42" length for 1.5 Sg in 1:9 twist in 264 Win Mag at high-altitude (6000 to 9000 feet). So that is the pre-determined criteria: .264", 1:9 twist, copper mono. I'm not considering anything outside those parameters.

There appears to be two designs: copper expanding bullets (TTSX, LRX, CX, e-Tip) and copper fragmenting bullets (Controlled Chaos, CEB, Hammer).

Because 6.5mm is regarded as marginal on elk and I'm necessarily choosing lighter bullets due to my twist rate's length limitations, I'm inclined toward the expanding bullets that retain the weight. Perhaps the shank of the fragmenting bullets maintains a sectional density equivalent to the heavier but expanded projectile. I don't know how that translates to actual results.

I see that Hammer claims on their website that their bullets need 1.5 Sg calculated at sea-level for effective terminal performance even if they're used at higher altitude. So, without more spin, does the bullet yaw and fail to open or the shank yaw and fail to exit? It looks like their adamant their bullets won't perform in my twist rate, so I'm disinclined towards the fragmenting type.

I'm inclined toward the Barnes 127 grain LRX because it has a shorter length (1.402") that will comfortably meet Miller-formula Sg of 1.5 at my altitude (I live at 5000' but the game is even higher), even in sub-zero temps, and because it's a proven-performer on elk. I already have them on back-order, but could cancel.

Haven't read the thread. If you want proper bullet performance on game (terminal performance) you should adhere to the 1.5sg calculated at sea level, regardless of which one you choose. In our line of bullets I would recommend the 118gr Hammer HHT.

 

[K.E.C.]

I wouldn't call it bashing more so better options have come about. I used to shoot Barnes. But I simply found a much better bullet in cutting edge. Then the hammers were much better than those. Barnes are ok but they have a downfall now f being harder than hammers and cutting edge. They are made to mushroom not shed. Which is not quite as good. Most cup core shed some weight that's why they are so good. I kill a lot of animals roughly 100 big game a year. I can say that over several years using each Barnes were ok but not in the same league as cutting edge or hammer. In fact they would be last on my list for monos. I'd still be shooting a lot of cup core if Barnes were the only option.
Many products have long runs with success but as time moves on the get better products to market. Nosler partition had been killing things for longer than most doesn't make it the best bullet by today's standards. Maybe a better bc and tipp it could be but it simply is not.

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