Yes i suppose i do. I dont mean they are gonna be harmful to the shooter but very tough on bullets. There is just not a advantage to using them consider you will be hard pressed to ever get the next one to come out the same and work like they should.
375 cal barrel twist and projectiles?
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Yes you have a point. I will try to make mine more clear. I was not saying that you guys wont do it because i simply dont know. But from my experience the bc's of these bullets are being pushed to far. As far as the terms in calibers go the center of gravity on these bullets just simply wont work. Its been proven time and time again over the last 100 years and i doubt thats gonna change. I think it would be great if it works out and is gonna take some kind of break through. Which i hope you guys get. Its just the direction i doubt. I do wish ya the best of luck and hope you do prove me wrong.
bobby
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noel carlson
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Bobby,
"Ok guys..... There will never be a stable version of the 7 cal bullet."... You are wrong. I have already proven this. What I did not realize is that I was bucking one hundred years of *fact*. The only challenge which remains is modifying for transonic stability, and I do not see this as a particularly daunting task from a design standpoint.
"The twist rates you guys are getting into are a dangerous game and i think a much much unneeded step. "... This is just plain silly. There is nothing "dangerous" about a seventeen caliber exit-twist from a VGT barrel... except, possibly, to the economic fortunes of a shop that is not equipped to produce anything tighter than a twenty-one caliber constant twist.
"I would love to see this stuff work and wish ya the best of luck.... Now its variable gain twist? What in the hell is this coming to? Sorry to say it all seems like a show here. But the way things are falling GS may have a viable bullet for the 8 twist barrel and should be plenty enough for now....
"... Bobby, I know something about the design principles employed in the GS "SP" projectiles. When they fall at, or below, six calibers in length, your 8" twist barrels will begin to stabilize them... but never with high accuracy unless they adopt a more sophisticated approach to aeroballistics.
With reference to the "show" factor of VGT rifling geometry; this is not unexplored territory. It is at least twenty years old in it's most refined form, but has not yet been applied to small calibers. Once again, you are wrong.
When working with engraving band projectiles, many opportunities open up to increase projectile BC, flatten the axial torque curve, moderate barrel whip, maintain perfect projectile/bore axis alignment, and obtain extreme velocities, that are simply not possible with 128 year old, jacketed bullet, technology.
Best,
Noel
"Ok guys..... There will never be a stable version of the 7 cal bullet."... You are wrong. I have already proven this. What I did not realize is that I was bucking one hundred years of *fact*. The only challenge which remains is modifying for transonic stability, and I do not see this as a particularly daunting task from a design standpoint.
"The twist rates you guys are getting into are a dangerous game and i think a much much unneeded step. "... This is just plain silly. There is nothing "dangerous" about a seventeen caliber exit-twist from a VGT barrel... except, possibly, to the economic fortunes of a shop that is not equipped to produce anything tighter than a twenty-one caliber constant twist.
"I would love to see this stuff work and wish ya the best of luck.... Now its variable gain twist? What in the hell is this coming to? Sorry to say it all seems like a show here. But the way things are falling GS may have a viable bullet for the 8 twist barrel and should be plenty enough for now....
"... Bobby, I know something about the design principles employed in the GS "SP" projectiles. When they fall at, or below, six calibers in length, your 8" twist barrels will begin to stabilize them... but never with high accuracy unless they adopt a more sophisticated approach to aeroballistics.
With reference to the "show" factor of VGT rifling geometry; this is not unexplored territory. It is at least twenty years old in it's most refined form, but has not yet been applied to small calibers. Once again, you are wrong.
When working with engraving band projectiles, many opportunities open up to increase projectile BC, flatten the axial torque curve, moderate barrel whip, maintain perfect projectile/bore axis alignment, and obtain extreme velocities, that are simply not possible with 128 year old, jacketed bullet, technology.
Best,
Noel
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noel carlson
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Bobby,
"I cant wait to see the proof... "... And so you shall, but no sooner than the complete barrel/cartridge combination is available to the public at large. I hope you will be understanding, but I am sure that you are aware of some posers who recently popped to the surface with a "new" system.
In the interim, is there a theoretical basis for some of your doubts?
"I cant wait to see the proof... "... And so you shall, but no sooner than the complete barrel/cartridge combination is available to the public at large. I hope you will be understanding, but I am sure that you are aware of some posers who recently popped to the surface with a "new" system.
In the interim, is there a theoretical basis for some of your doubts?
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Extremist458
Well-Known Member
I actually am starting to feel bad for having to follow this stuff around and spend so much time repeating myself, really, some of us have to work Noel!
Here it is, very simple. GS Custom Bullets built the 6.7 cal 295 grain .338 bullet 8 years ago. It flies perfectlly, well beyond transonic. Tested in the Brisbane sniper report 4 years ago... the 232 grain, 267 grain and 295 grain bullets all tested great with spectacular accuracy (exceeding what SMK and Lapua offered) to more then 300 m past transonic. This is a 1+B.C. bullet that has now been shot in many rifles, over many years, and it's from a 7.5 twist! It works. the 6 cal 355 grain .375, just like the 420 grain .416, just like the 566 grain .458, have all flown to ultra long ranges, from many a rifle, over many years. We are not new to this, we are just new to posting here.
We don't need VGT barrels, or even LGT barrels to make them work, they work from straight twists, and it's been proven and shot at very long ranges. The 7 cal bullets are difficult to do, as we all know, but the bullet we are making will work in a standard 8 twist easily. When the bullet goes off at 500+ yards, it's because of design, not because of twist. If it was twist, it would be off at 100 because it comes out of the barrel unstable. Noel, I appreciate your work, and go about doing whatever you are doing, but please stop the little degrading comments about GS...it's getting very old.
As I have said to KZ, GS doesn't require you to use some special hard to get barrel that is exclusive only to our bullets. Use a standard 10 or 8 twist and shoot ANY bullet you like. We have always welcomed our customers to shoot and test anybody's bullets, as it promotes the embetterment of the community we love so much. I spoke with BobbyL the other day and he is a very knowledgable guy, and we should listen to his advice. I can understand why anyone would not want to wait and hold their breath on this new develpment. As well you shouldn't, if you are not the type to try new things. This is one of the reasons GS is concerned with these specialized barrels. We know the bullets will work, and how well they work, and so they will sell themselves. Build a rifle you can trust, and shoot whatever bullets you feel comfortable shooting; then, if you would like, test out the new stuff and see just where this can go.
P.S. Bullets are on day two of testing, and will mention the results here when it's all said and done...even testing them from a 10 twist just to see what happens!
Here it is, very simple. GS Custom Bullets built the 6.7 cal 295 grain .338 bullet 8 years ago. It flies perfectlly, well beyond transonic. Tested in the Brisbane sniper report 4 years ago... the 232 grain, 267 grain and 295 grain bullets all tested great with spectacular accuracy (exceeding what SMK and Lapua offered) to more then 300 m past transonic. This is a 1+B.C. bullet that has now been shot in many rifles, over many years, and it's from a 7.5 twist! It works. the 6 cal 355 grain .375, just like the 420 grain .416, just like the 566 grain .458, have all flown to ultra long ranges, from many a rifle, over many years. We are not new to this, we are just new to posting here.
We don't need VGT barrels, or even LGT barrels to make them work, they work from straight twists, and it's been proven and shot at very long ranges. The 7 cal bullets are difficult to do, as we all know, but the bullet we are making will work in a standard 8 twist easily. When the bullet goes off at 500+ yards, it's because of design, not because of twist. If it was twist, it would be off at 100 because it comes out of the barrel unstable. Noel, I appreciate your work, and go about doing whatever you are doing, but please stop the little degrading comments about GS...it's getting very old.
As I have said to KZ, GS doesn't require you to use some special hard to get barrel that is exclusive only to our bullets. Use a standard 10 or 8 twist and shoot ANY bullet you like. We have always welcomed our customers to shoot and test anybody's bullets, as it promotes the embetterment of the community we love so much. I spoke with BobbyL the other day and he is a very knowledgable guy, and we should listen to his advice. I can understand why anyone would not want to wait and hold their breath on this new develpment. As well you shouldn't, if you are not the type to try new things. This is one of the reasons GS is concerned with these specialized barrels. We know the bullets will work, and how well they work, and so they will sell themselves. Build a rifle you can trust, and shoot whatever bullets you feel comfortable shooting; then, if you would like, test out the new stuff and see just where this can go.
P.S. Bullets are on day two of testing, and will mention the results here when it's all said and done...even testing them from a 10 twist just to see what happens!
Noel & Anthony,
Nobody wishes to see Vendor ****ing matches on this string....So please don't get started..... I was a Vendor for many many years, and I will be the first to tell you that the customers don't really pay attention to your words when you are speaking about the other guy or guys.
We pay attention to your words when you are only speaking about YOUR very own product, all else falls on deaf ears. And in the end, your bullets will stand on their own merrits, no words are needed.
Thanks
zman
Results results results.......
Nor do i want to spark anything that is gonna cause problems on this here thread. I simple state what i see and think. These guys are pushing a envelope that has never been pushed before and i think its great for the sport for people to be working at such a tough goal. I just see and hear things about this and the fact that the customer should not have to support such a experiment. There has been and looks like there will still be a whole lot of powder burning to be done before the dust clears on this project.
Another thing that i have been looking into with these new super heavy bullets and big cases is the lack of a good propellant for them. When we gonna get someone started on that??? I have really liked what i get out of BMG for the 375 for speed but the stability isn't there and the kernels are freaking big. We need to get someone to make a slightly slower powder but still have it stable and easy to meter.
Nor do i want to spark anything that is gonna cause problems on this here thread. I simple state what i see and think. These guys are pushing a envelope that has never been pushed before and i think its great for the sport for people to be working at such a tough goal. I just see and hear things about this and the fact that the customer should not have to support such a experiment. There has been and looks like there will still be a whole lot of powder burning to be done before the dust clears on this project.
Another thing that i have been looking into with these new super heavy bullets and big cases is the lack of a good propellant for them. When we gonna get someone started on that??? I have really liked what i get out of BMG for the 375 for speed but the stability isn't there and the kernels are freaking big. We need to get someone to make a slightly slower powder but still have it stable and easy to meter.
noel carlson
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Bobby,
We are having no problem capturing 3,000+ fps with existing propellants in our cartridge, but your point is well taken.
Alliant acquired, nearly a year now, a 50 BMG propellant manufactured by Nitrochemie that has chemistry similar to Reloader 17, and would be perfect for this cartridge. Currently ATK is jumping through hoops to get DOT certification so that they can ship.
It has a nice, flat, pressure curve. I expect it to add another ~150 fps to presently achieveable MVs.
Kelly,
"And in the end, your bullets will stand on their own merrits, no words are needed."... Could not have said it better myself, thanks.
We are having no problem capturing 3,000+ fps with existing propellants in our cartridge, but your point is well taken.
Alliant acquired, nearly a year now, a 50 BMG propellant manufactured by Nitrochemie that has chemistry similar to Reloader 17, and would be perfect for this cartridge. Currently ATK is jumping through hoops to get DOT certification so that they can ship.
It has a nice, flat, pressure curve. I expect it to add another ~150 fps to presently achieveable MVs.
Kelly,
"And in the end, your bullets will stand on their own merrits, no words are needed."... Could not have said it better myself, thanks.
Fotis
Well-Known Member
My 375 Snipetac has a 1:11.5 twist.
Complete story here
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...arch/true/My_new_LR_stick_is_here#Post3923275
Complete story here
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...arch/true/My_new_LR_stick_is_here#Post3923275
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Noel, our (australian defence industries) ADI AR2218 powder might be slower burning than H50BMG but slightly faster than the 20mm powders.... i have read some reports of it having a nice flat pressure curve also, but this is from a source i cannot verify the legitimacy, and i cannot find anymore info on it. AR2218 may be exactly H50BMG however, i believe hodgden imports ADI manufactured powders from australia into the USA (and relabels some of them as hodgden powders for market there)
i have some on order here and ill post the results in my 375 cheytac once i get some thru the chrony...
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noel carlson
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Groper,
It is entirely possible that we are looking at the same propellant. There is enough re-labeling going on right now, that it is difficult to track the identity of new entries.
It does seem that Swiss have been very successful in this field of late.
It is entirely possible that we are looking at the same propellant. There is enough re-labeling going on right now, that it is difficult to track the identity of new entries.
It does seem that Swiss have been very successful in this field of late.
Heres mine kelly.... 1:10 twist
it should be able to shoot the following;
350gr SMK
355gr GSCustom SP
350gr Predator projectiles
370gr Rocky mountain Al tippped
350gr Lehigh Brass solid
and MAYBE some of Noel Carsons shorter ZA bullets, not sure yet...
Groper,
I ended up ordering a 1--10 twist for my 375 snipe tac...All my parts come in by the end of next week and we should start assembly. So, Im getting anxious about ordering and loading bullets. Can you send me any info on anything below you have loaded for and shot? Im getting a batch of the following bullets to do some testing....
350 smks
330 lehighs
370 Rky mtns
maybe some preditors
I hear the Lehighs like to be at least .065 off the lands
I hear the preditors like to be kissing the lands
I know the smks will probly be forgiving
Not sure about the Rky mtns
thanks
zman
