308 Win - Long range hunting - What am I missing?

[slowrunning]

Looking for some opinions from anyone experienced in taking game with 200+ grain bullets, specifically the 210, 215 and 230 Bergers.

I've read about people running the heavy bullets out of 308's at and above 2700 fps. I also read that hunting with a 308 past a few hundred yards is "unethical/etc". With typical 308 loads I would agree but the numbers with the heavy bullets, even at "slow" speeds seem to make a strong argument.

If we forget about caliber and look strictly at the numbers, a 215 Berger at a mv of say 2600 fps, you get over 1700 fps and over 1400 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards. My novice guess is that's sufficient for the bullet to perform well and kill... elk. Assuming a well placed shot (as with any caliber). For the record, I intend to limit shots to 800 yards but used 1k numbers as that's a familiar standard.

Having just sold (and taken elk and bear) with a 28 nosler pushing 195's at over 3100, I'm fully aware that there are bigger/better calibers for long range hunting. However I have a $7k AI in 308 that I'd like to use for everything from tactical matches to long range hunting. Kind of a 1 gun for everything approach.

So if those experienced with the 308 and/or heavy bullets could either confirm my belief or give me a reality check I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Not sure how you calculate the 215 but there's no way you'll get 1700' sec at 1000 yards. 2600'sec is tough to get but possible. It takes 26-28" barrel. It helps to have 5R type rifling. It also takes compressed loads.

All that said, the 208 ELDM is tough to beat. I imagine the 200.20x would be wicked. The 178 ELDX and 180 elite are dang tough to beat for traditional weights.

If loaded right, there's nothing wrong with the 308 as a long range hunting rifle. Is it a 1000 yard elk rifle? Not in my opinion. Is it a 1000 yard deer rifle? In my opinion, it can be with the right load at the right altitude.

My longest kill with the 308 was 743 yards. One shot on a dall ram. Another at 702 and other game from 12 yards to 650. 155s through the 208.

 

[Bravo 4]

Not sure how you calculate the 215 but there's no way you'll get 1700' sec at 1000 yards. 2600'sec is tough to get but possible.

You can with quite a bit of altitude. In my ballistics app, a 215 Berger @ 2600 fps will be 1701 fps (with 50 degree temp) at 1000 yards from the spot I shot my elk this past season.

If the .300 WinMag will push that same bullet 400 fps faster than the .308 and it will lose approx 1 fps second per yard, then theoretically the .300 mag will have the same terminal performance 400 yards further than the .308...and the opposite vise versa. The reason I mention that is I know guys who say they would take a 1200 yard shot at a deer with their .300 but would not take an 800 yard shot with a .308. It's just a numbers game. Think of the cartridge as the engine that provides thrust to get the bullet moving and the rifle as the launch pad...neither of which matter once the bullet is in the air.

 

[AZShooter]

Well said Bravo.

I was going to suggest if the OP wants to know how the 215 Berger hybrid performs to read Broz thread on the 210 VLD vs the 215 hybrid.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/index12.html

Within this long well documented thread all impact velocities are reported. The reader can also see the bullet performance on the animal. All that is necessary to is crunch the numbers on a ballistics program for the 308.


Good example is the longer shot on an antelope:

"1285 yards with an impact velocity of 1677 fps"

My 308 shoots the 215 at 2515 fps with its short barrel. It duplicates Broz's 300 performance of 1677 fps at 1000 yds for my hunting conditions. (1674 fps 4000 ft 59 degrees etc)

 

[slowrunning]

Thanks for the replies guys. I ran the numbers based on 7000 ft elevation, which is actually quite lower than the few places I hunt. I'd be using a 26" barrel. I've read on some benchrest forums of guys getting pretty ridiculous speeds with 28" barrels so I think 2600 is attainable in a 26.

I also read about 40 pages of Broz thread over the last few days and that's what has really got me thinking about hunting with the heavy bullets and a 308. Most of that discussion is about the magnum calibers though so I figured I'd throw the 308 out there and see if I got blasted over suggesting it.

 

[Bravo 4]

Also check out MontanaMarine's posts on the .308 with heavies.

As Michael said, don't discount the Hornady projectiles either. The Amax doesn't appear to be in production anymore, but the ELD-M (it's replacement) is basically an upgraded version. According to a Hornady rep in a phone conversation.

 

[slowrunning]

I have looked at the hornady ELD-X but the BC's aren't quite what the bergers are. Haven't considered ELD-M's, anyone have any experience hunting with them?